What Army Will be our Biggest Competition?

[DeathPoke]

*Poke*

Agreed, horde/swarm is easily swept aside with high str shooting and purifiers with cleansing flame. I find that good IG and Tau Generals to be the hardest to play, especially the latter of the two. When our main strength lies with our shooting and mopping up afterwards, any army that can pull off better shooting is going to give us a hard time, unless we have ravens etc, to close the gap quickly.

[experiment 626]

Whoever voted for Daemons?! That has to win the award for "Best Troll of the Year!"

Daemons can't work against the new knights unless the knight player is kind enough to play a friendly list and/or henchman horde...
The knight codex is ruthless considering how easy it is to table a daemon army simply by going first & warp quake spaming the entire board... (and yes, it's happened to me more than once because most of the local GK players are giant d-bags!)



Anyways, I voted guard are the knight's hardest opponent, though tau are pretty close too when used well... However, guard is alot easier to exploit than the tau and requires far less thought to be brutally efficient. (hence why leafblower lists are so loathed!)

Cheers!

[AtlantianWarrior]

Whoever voted for Daemons?! That has to win the award for "Best Troll of the Year!"

Daemons can't work against the new knights unless the knight player is kind enough to play a friendly list and/or henchman horde...
The knight codex is ruthless considering how easy it is to table a daemon army simply by going first & warp quake spaming the entire board... (and yes, it's happened to me more than once because most of the local GK players are giant d-bags!)

No offense but Daemon players can be d-bags just as well. Now that there is a codex that can put them in check Daemon players cry foul. Sad part to the game everyone wants their cake and eat it too.

[Stradius]

Khorne Blessings lists makes GKs Cry (assuming they get to land). Ofc, that list will get happily munched by Guard or similar. There are plenty of balanced, competitive GK lists that don't include 2-3 Strike Squads and 2 Interceptors though.

[experiment 626]

No offense but Daemon players can be d-bags just as well. Now that there is a codex that can put them in check Daemon players cry foul. Sad part to the game everyone wants their cake and eat it too.

There's d-bags for every army out there - it's sadly a fact of life for anything that's remotely competitive...

I cry foul because the GK's are blaitently over-powered against daemons, to the point that it's almost impossible for the daemons to even show up on the table! True you need to tailor a list to do it, but the fact that it's so easy to do so, on top of all the other anti-daemon goodness like the piss-poorly worded dark excomunication, and the likes of the various grenades plus fugding with our expensive icons...
Most cheesy lists hurt all armies equally, GK's are filthy with little effort against just one particular book!

But then, we're talking about the guy who ruined an entire edition of fantasy because, "well, they're Daemons!"
So I guess the answer as to why GK's ruin daemons so easily would be a simple, "well, they're Grey Knights!"



Overall though, Knights will have an easier time of it vs daemons, but the guard will ruin anyone's day since they can just sit back at range and harrass with airborn vet squads loaded with meltas or plasmas...
But then, any mech army I thik would also be a big challenge vs foot knights, since they have the speed to keep out of that 24" range, leaving the bulk of the workload on the psycannons to even the odds. (so if they keep failing, it could be a long, painful day!)

Cheers!

[Stradius]

... how is Dark Excommunication poorly worded? It's clear on all 3 major points: When it's used (start of any assault phase), what it does (removes Daemonic Gifts), and who it affects (one unit in base contact with the caster). More importantly, Dark Excommunication is about the only thing in the entire book that only affects Daemons, and even then all of 3 different models even have it (or access to it). Everything else will also affect Psykers, making the army Grey Knights are best against, ironically, other Grey Knights.

Also, rather than Grey Knights being overpowered, maybe it's just Daemons that suck? (and then, mostly due to their forced gimmick deployment method.. which is factored into their points costs, but when you can't land....) It's not like Spore Tyranids or Drop Pod Marines fare a whole lot better. Screwing with Daemonic Icons (and similar items) is not restricted to Grey Knights either. Space Marine Land Speeder Storms can do it as well, but hey, they suck so nobody takes them. (Bonus: Instead of auto-mishapping, you scatter 4d6 inches. Whee)

[experiment 626]

...how is Dark Excommunication poorly worded? It's clear on all 3 major points: When it's used (start of any assault phase), what it does (removes Daemonic Gifts), and who it affects (one unit in base contact with the caster). More importantly, Dark Excommunication is about the only thing in the entire book that only affects Daemons, and even then all of 3 different models even have it (or access to it). Everything else will also affect Psykers, making the army Grey Knights are best against, ironically, other Grey Knights.

Because it was totally fair that dark ex nerfed a herald's mount and takes away a daemon prince's mark of chaos?!
It's at least been FAQ'd that it can't make mounts go 'poof', but it still gimps a DP's mark of chaos, and depending on the GK player's attitude, it also nerfs things like skulltaker's special insta-kill ability and similar too... It just needed 1 sentance to clairify what counted as a 'daemonic gift'. (ie: won't affect a mount, mark or inate special rule)

GK's also get the likes of Truesilver Armour (nasty on those dreads), Psyk-out & Psychotroke grenades, Psilencers, Banishers (who can negate Fateweaver's effect), Stern's Zone of Banishment power & the absurdly overpowered Warp Quake... (or rather, the stupid 1st turn warp-shunting interceptor nonsense!)

Also, rather than Grey Knights being overpowered, maybe it's just Daemons that suck? (and then, mostly due to their forced gimmick deployment method.. which is factored into their points costs, but when you can't land....)
It's not like Spore Tyranids or Drop Pod Marines fare a whole lot better. Screwing with Daemonic Icons (and similar items) is not restricted to Grey Knights either. Space Marine Land Speeder Storms can do it as well, but hey, they suck so nobody takes them. (Bonus: Instead of auto-mishapping, you scatter 4d6 inches. Whee)

GK's have too many advantages against daemons - hence why it's absured that someone answered 'Daemons' to the original question here!
And daemon don't suck - except against GK's & pure mech spam... Hell, we're the best damn army for dismanteling parking lot guard and pretty much ruining anyone trying to gunline! But against GK's, the book is so damn slanted against us, that the GK player has to actually try and build a non-abusive list or else the game is just a dice rolling excersise.

As for warp quake hurting other armies too... Drop pod marines don't get screwed over since they can choose to not embark in their pods during deployment.
Tyranids don't get the option, but very few if any 'nid players use spores anyways because there's no model and you thus have to build your own!

[Stradius]

Truesilver Armor (which nobody takes), Psilencers (Same), Stern (Same, and isn't limited to affecting Daemons anyway...), Banishers (Equally rare unless you're fielding a Henchman list... and you're then not spamming Warp Quake).

As for Marks and Mounts, those are Marks of Chaos and Daemonic Steeds. Do you see them listed in the Daemonic Gifts section of the Chaos Daemons book? No? Thought not. Skulltaker's special rule? Is that listed under Daemonic Gifts? No. The wording isn't poor, people are just stupid.

Drop Pod Marines don't suffer as badly, but those points you paid on the pods are now wasted (and they're not terribly cheap) and you're just playing a foot marines list with all short-ranged heavy weapons. So yeah, it becomes a dice-rolling exercise.

Note that I don't disagree with answering Daemons being a bit silly... mostly because Guard (and possibly Dark Eldar) are the correct answer.

[cKerensky]

I like to think I run Henchmen lists from time to time, and even then...I don't run banishers.

[experiment 626]

Truesilver Armor (which nobody takes), Psilencers (Same), Stern (Same, and isn't limited to affecting Daemons anyway...), Banishers (Equally rare unless you're fielding a Henchman list... and you're then not spamming Warp Quake).

Funny, 'cause I've faced a number of Truesilver dreads w/asscan + TL autocannon & psybolts... So while my princes will likely wreck a dread, they're taking S6 hits anyways!

And while psilencers & stern aren't the most popular options, (mainly because psycannons are too good & crow is a better all round buy), it doesn't make them any less nasty vs daemons, and it sucks big time facing them in tailored lists!
Psilencers wouldn't be so bad if they just counted as a poisoned weapon vs daemons & kept a strait to-wound roll all the time, but they're no-brainers vs daemons because they still get to keep the better to-wound roll vs our T3 units...
Stern is just plain nasty vs daemons, considering that most of the units are only S3/4 and forcing us to re-roll successful tests? Ouch... And we have no chance at all to stop it because for some reason, creatures of the warp have no psychic defense?!! (seriously, WTF?)

As for Marks and Mounts, those are Marks of Chaos and Daemonic Steeds. Do you see them listed in the Daemonic Gifts section of the Chaos Daemons book? No? Thought not. Skulltaker's special rule? Is that listed under Daemonic Gifts? No. The wording isn't poor, people are just stupid.

And yes, I do see steeds & marks listed in the "Daemonic Gifts" section of my codex... Thus, by RAW, prior to the FAQ about the steeds, it was a valid argument that everything described in that section was indeed a 'daemonic gift' and thus affected by dark ex. (And I totally agree that it is people being stupid, but hey, it's RAW!)
Our marks weren't FAQ'd, so technically, they can be axed by dark ex, as stupid as it seems...


Grey Knights are simply over powered vs Daemons... They've got too many abilities, that they're not paying for because some of their rules only affect 1 specific army. Consider;
- a CM Tactical Marine = 16pts and he gets a Bolter, Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades & ATSKNF.
- a Grek Knight Strikesquad Marine = 20pts and gets a STORMbolter, Nemesis Force weapon, Frag & Krak grenades, Psyk-out grenades, ATSKNF, Prefered Enemy: Daemons, The Aegis, Hammerhand & Warp Quake. O.o
For 4pts more... Seriously, what part of that equals 4 freaking pts?!! He's got a power weapon, that can be used to insta-pop stuff, but if you're a daemon, well sorry but eternal warrior doesn't make you immune anymore! He's got better range, and grenades that again, seriously hurt daemons... (though comically enough, they're equally deadly to other kinghts!) Need higher strength against those single wound guys? No worries, you've got hammerhand. Opponent has deep strikers, well, just cast warp quake to solve all your problems & sorry daemon players, but this one just F's you over backwards!

Seriously, what was Ward smoking when he came up with these guys??!