What Army Will be our Biggest Competition?

[Stradius]

Daemons weren't immune to Force Weapons off Grey Knights before, since Grey Knights force weapons neatly bypassed the Eternal Warrior rule (due to being around before that rule even existed.. or the rule Instant Death), and most of them simply gave +2S rather than the instagib anyway They can get +1S now, but it's only about a 3/4ths chance, with a non-negligible chance of killing your own squad members... and it can be hooded/runed. (Not to mention that Daemonbane is significantly less dangerous than a Force Weapon, given the universal Ld10 that Daemons have)

Also note that tactical marines get free/cheaper special/heavy weapons, which Knights do not (Psilencer excepted, and that only because it forces them to remain still to fire... and replaces both Storm Bolter and NFS). They also have Combat Tactics, which Knights do not, and no real loss of combat potential when taking a transport (and Drop Pods!).

The fact that you're facing tailored lists is simply a sign of poor judgement on your part. I could write a list with most codecies that will trash any other given codex provided I know what I'm facing in advance (and with the imagination of most Daemons players, it's not hard to guess).

As for Truesilver TL-Assault/TL-AC, not only does it show he has little judgement of how to run his dread, it's really not all that. I suppose you complain about how Tau Flechette Dischargers are all OP and stuff to?

[experiment 626]

Daemons weren't immune to Force Weapons off Grey Knights before, since Grey Knights force weapons neatly bypassed the Eternal Warrior rule (due to being around before that rule even existed.. or the rule Instant Death), and most of them simply gave +2S rather than the instagib anyway They can get +1S now, but it's only about a 3/4ths chance, with a non-negligible chance of killing your own squad members... and it can be hooded/runed. (Not to mention that Daemonbane is significantly less dangerous than a Force Weapon, given the universal Ld10 that Daemons have)

Only Grandmasters & Inquisitors got pointy-death-sticks under the 'hunters dex, so having 2 models that could threaten multiple units of multi-wounds creatures wasn't bad at all...
Now, EVERY. SINGLE. GREY. KNIGHT! can potentially insta-pooch any daemon. Sure it's on a failed Ld10 test, but the more you roll, the more you'll fail. Plus, psychotroke grenades have a 1 in 6 chance of knocking a daemonic unit down to a pitifull Ld2...

As for hood'ing/rune'ing? It's nice that most armies can... Yet daemons are still F'ed since we have no psychic counters.

Also note that tactical marines get free/cheaper special/heavy weapons, which Knights do not (Psilencer excepted, and that only because it forces them to remain still to fire... and replaces both Storm Bolter and NFS). They also have Combat Tactics, which Knights do not, and no real loss of combat potential when taking a transport (and Drop Pods!).

And yet, pg21 of my GK codex clearly lists the 'Combat Squads' rule?! (one the major reasons why freaking Turn 1 Quake-shunting is so retarded & broken!)
And true, while a grey knight does lose more gear to a weapon upgrade than his codex counterparts, he argueably gains a better all round weapon since he can move and shoot with his most likely upgrade (psycannon)

Knights don't need drop pods - you've got storm ravens, rhinos, razorbacks, stolen chimeras & jump units plus a Librarian who can call his buds at a moment's notice...
The fact that you're facing tailored lists is simply a sign of poor judgement on your part. I could write a list with most codecies that will trash any other given codex provided I know what I'm facing in advance (and with the imagination of most Daemons players, it's not hard to guess).

As for Truesilver TL-Assault/TL-AC, not only does it show he has little judgement of how to run his dread, it's really not all that. I suppose you complain about how Tau Flechette Dischargers are all OP and stuff to?

Twin-linked rifle dreads are more popular is all... Asscan/TL auto psybolts is just as nasty, because the lack of accuracy is made up for by the additional shots, and 4 of those shots are rending. It loses out a bit on range, but it's a solid support for a knight line.

Truesilver armour is silly for it's cost! Flechetter launchers, DE vehicle spikes and similar aren't bad because they only inflict a single hit, or else only hurt on rolls of 1's. TS armour works for every single hit, and instead of S4 or a strait 4+ to-wound, it savages daemons-only with S6!!! How the hell is that right that I charge a DP in, knock out the dread and then lose my prince when the dread never even got to swing?!!
It's just silly that it's that strong, especially when daemons are already strugling big time to deal with vehicles in the first place!

[Stradius]

Not Combat Squads, Combat Tactics. Very, very important difference (Especially when you can replace Combat Tactics with Chapter Tactics that, say, make your Flamer and Multi-melta twin-linked). Not to mention with Flechette Dischargers (same cost as the Truesilver armor, incidentally) could kill your Prince before he even gets to swing. Not to mention it fires automatically, and isn't contingent upon you actually landing a hit.

As for Psychotroke Grenades (and relevant to Stern, as well) their abilities are not limited to daemons, and in the case of the first, normally not particularly potents (Not to mention Zone of Banishment forgoes his close combat attacks, affects friendly models, hits at I5 (so you can kill him before it goes off with a Slaaneshi Prince or a few other things), don't count towards combat resolution, may only be used if he's actualy locked in assault.

As for not getting Drop Pods, it is rather important considering everything they get regular marines can get as well, with the except of The Summoning (and Chimeras, which have enough restrictions riding along with them to practically discount them), which is an incredibly easy way to make your own guys roll on the Deep Strike Mishap table.

For the Dread, the TL-Assault/TL-AC is in fact the inferior to the Psyfle setup against any army with signficant ranged shooting, which Ward cannot be blamed for Daemons not having (As well as their fluffy, if stupid, deployment method). If you want to know who to blame for that, it's Alessio Cavatore and Gav Thorpe.

I also notice you're ignoring your own cheese in the form of Blessing of the Blood God.

I'll also leave you with a simple math problem: Which is more likely to kill a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch if charged: 10 WS4 S5 (granted Hammerhand) attacks, or 20 WS5 S6 Attacks? And how many will they lose in return? Run it against Bloodletters and Flesh Hounds too, for kicks. Or any Grey Knights Character against Skulltaker on a Juggernaut

[cKerensky]

For the Dread, the TL-Assault/TL-AC is in fact the inferior to the Psyfle setup against any army with signficant ranged shooting....

Not true. Given an average deployment, the Tl-AC, Assault cannon (it's not twin linked) should be within range of most armies first turn. You can't compare what a Psyfleman Dred can do to a Rainman dred. They're roles are similar, but a Rainman is designed for close ranged support, a rifleman dred is for ranged support.

Plus, statistically, the differences in what they'll do to a vehicle is very small, and in fact, the Rainman will do better against AV13 and 14. (It can't glance AV13: Only penetrate it)

[experiment 626]

Not true. Given an average deployment, the Tl-AC, Assault cannon (it's not twin linked) should be within range of most armies first turn. You can't compare what a Psyfleman Dred can do to a Rainman dred. They're roles are similar, but a Rainman is designed for close ranged support, a rifleman dred is for ranged support.

Plus, statistically, the differences in what they'll do to a vehicle is very small, and in fact, the Rainman will do better against AV13 and 14. (It can't glance AV13: Only penetrate it)

Thank-you sir for the input! The only time (as you've called it) the 'Rainman' is inferior to a Rifleman dread is against those 30-48" gunlines. (so parking lot IG, Tau and the likes)
But against most armies who will move about and come at you, this set-up is much more flexable and overall better because it kills vehicles easier once in range, and can deal with MEQ's more effectively due to the rending potential...



And really, Blessings being cheesey?!! God forbid the poor Daemons get 1 actual advantage when facing a book that's utterly broken against them!!! I suppose you think chariot Tzheralds are cheesey too? How about Fateweaver? (the one guy who can allow us to really try & compete vs new knights!)

Seriously, you're not paying any real pts for your anti-daemon abilities because they're too specific in a game with over a dozen different armies that you could face... under 10pts for stuff like dark ex (which removes the "cheesey blessings ya know), truesilver armour which can kill an unwounded prince or greater daemon without the vehicle ever having to land a single freaking attack?!
Not to mention bulls*^! like the insanely broken warp quake or banishers... (and yes, hiding a single banisher in a unit of crusaders or arcos or deathcults and such is filthy when you know you're playing daemons!)

The daemons book is ironically still good outside of the pile of steaming crap that is Ward's stupid knight codex... (we actually tear parking lot IG a new one very easily, while missilefang puppies are just an army of fewer squishy marines!)
It's only pure mech-spam & now knights especially which daemons suffer against.

[Stradius]

You do realize that Blessings gives you a 2+ invul against any close combat unit worth the name (other than Death Cult Assassins) in the GK book, right? And that Dark Excommunication only comes on 3 models, right? And that Truesilver Armor doesn't apply Daemonbane, so it's not going to kill an unwounded prince? Unless you're saying you regularly land 4 hits, suffer 4 wounds, and fail all four saves.

The Rainman is still inferior to the Rifleman, because you're attempting to make a dedicated long-range fire support unit into an All-arounder, and as usual, that works... poorly. You either waste the added range of the Autocannon or the Assault Cannon entirely, and have to deploy it more aggressively, taking up space in your battle-line.

And face it, Fateweaver (and Bloodcrushers) was the only thing keeping Daemons competitive already.

(Incidentally, I like to take Banishers when running a CC henchman mob. Mostly because they're the only model that unit can field other than Servitors that can reliably hurt a walker in CC... and considering they're more expensive than an Assault Marine with a GEQ statline, it's not like I'm paying too little)

But hey, I guess I can somehow manage to spam Warp Quake, Dark Excommunication, Banishers, and Truesilver Armor on all my vehicles all in the same list without utterly crippling the list against any foe other than Daemons.... or any time I don't get first turn... or having more than the absolute minimum of models.

[cKerensky]

The Rainman is still inferior to the Rifleman, because you're attempting to make a dedicated long-range fire support unit into an All-arounder, and as usual, that works... poorly. You either waste the added range of the Autocannon or the Assault Cannon entirely, and have to deploy it more aggressively, taking up space in your battle-line.

That's not correct at all. Swapping out one weapon makes them two vasty different units with different target profiles. The Rainmans primary purpose is fire support, not Anti-Transport. If you use a Rainmain as anti-transport, then you're better off taking the Rifleman. The Rainman is supposed to be on the battle line (which you shouldnt have a problem with space. We're playing GKs after all), and it's supposed to be in that 12-24 inch range. A Rifleman sits back from range and takes down transports, which is great, but sometimes I want my dred up close and personal. If I play an aggressive army, I gain nothing from a Rifleman that a Rainman couldn't do better.

What do I use a Rainman on? Monstrous Creatures, MSUs, ICs, and if I need to, Tanks. On a Venerable platform, the Rainman is a durable weapon that I move up with my troops as I would any terminator squad.

I will give you this: The Rainman is inferior to the Rifleman when it comes to long range transport popping which most GK armies need. When I want a battle-walker to pump up the AEGIS on my GKs while laying down fire on MSUs, MCs and ICs, the Rainman is my dred of choice. It's a support platform.

That said: Venerable if Rainman (due to the "rain of bullets"), Regular if Rifleman.

[slobulous]

That said: Venerable if Rainman (due to the "rain of bullets"), Regular if Rifleman.

I like Venerable Psyrifle Dreads. For 60 extra points, you get the highest accuracy possible in the game, which equates to better damage output. They reliably land all 4 shots on target, whereas regular Dreads seem to frequently miss with one. They also have increased survivability. I understand that they may be 10-20 points overcosted, but I also take the fact that they use an Elite slot into consideration when deciding if they are worth the investment. By taking Psyrifle Dreads in the Elite section, I can take Purgation Squads with Psycannons and Psybacks in Heavy Support. A lot of my tactics are based around them and they perform extremely efficiently together.

[cKerensky]

I like Venerable Psyrifle Dreads. For 60 extra points, you get the highest accuracy possible in the game, which equates to better damage output, and increased survivability. I understand that they may be 10-20 points overcosted, but I also take the fact that they use an Elite slot into consideration when deciding if they are worth the investment. By taking Psyrifle Dreads in the Elite section, I can take Purgation Squads with 4x psycannons and Psybacks in Heavy Support. A lot of my tactics are based around them and they perform extremely efficiently with each other.

You raise some interesting and good points. Do you take a razorback for your purifiers, or a rhino? Do you find they survive in just a 4 man team, and...do you give them Scoring from a GKGM?

[slobulous]

After quite a bit of playtesting with both, I prefer a mix of Terminators and Strike Squads to Purifiers for several reasons, but when I did use Purifiers they were set up with 4 psycannons, 5 halberds, MC hammer, and psyback. Psycannons and 1 halberd hang in the back in cover to provide support fire, Justicar and other 4 halberds in Psyback to advance offensively. Crowe Tax really sucks, though.