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ok here's my idea my best friend has a wood elf army with plenty of dryads and tree kin and a good solid block of troops and also he is a veteran player with over 18 years of experience in playing warhammer and i hav e been playing for about 2 and a half years now and lack in experience to beat him .... although
i do have a plan that i know can beat him... i need someone help me to create a 3000 pint army with enough speed so i can outflank his toops, i know i can beat him if i can hit him on his flanks with some solids troops like dragon princes, sword master and white lions to hold him off in the middle so i can reach his flanks please help me with suggestions thank you !
Why don't you write a skeleton list of your own that way we can help you build on it. Give us some ideas about how you play as well, Defensive, cavalry, magic...
I would definitely take a unit of Dragon Princes with Amulet of Light and Banner of Ellyrion to be your fast moving flanker, there isn't too much that will stop them in a Wood Elf Army. White Lions are also a very good idea.
Aside from that you need to give us some ideas what you have and what else you want to use.
[IMG]file:///C:/Users/nerojin/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg[/IMG][IMG]file:///C:/Users/nerojin/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-1.jpg[/IMG][IMG]file:///C:/Users/nerojin/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-2.jpg[/IMG]prince - on star dragon, heavy armour, star lance, vambraces of defence, shield and longbow
archmage- level 3, book of hoeth
20 spearmen- standard bearer with lion standard
20-lothern sea guard
10 sword masters of hoeth
5 dragon princes
5 dragon princes
10 pheonix gurad
10 white lions
6 ellyrion reavers- echanged spears for bows
3 Great eagles
so here's my rough list let me know what you think... and please give me some suggestions
So here is how I would set my list up if I were you...
Prince - on star dragon, heavy armour, shield, star lance, vambraces of defence
Archmage- level 4, Book of Hoeth
20 Spearmen- standard bearer with lion standard
20-Spearmen (not worth using Sea gaurd at this points level you better just to take archers and spearmen in seperate units)
5 Dragon Princes Full Command, Amulet of Light + Banner of Ellyrion (Shouldn't be held up by terrain or Dryads or anything but a Treeman or Eternal Gaurd)
15+ Pheonix Gaurd - Full Command with Banner of Sorcery (would up these to 20 if I could find the points and drop another unit of Spears or Archers if I had too)
10 White Lions (these are instead of Swordmasters, I think they are better vs Wood Elves)
10 White Lions
6 ellyrion reavers- bows
3 Great eagles
I don't think that I would set my lords up like that, alot of our units need support and to do that you need to be able to spread your nobles and Mages out if possible. However you have a plan in mind and these are what you think you need to do it. I would definitely make the Mage with the Book of Hoeth L4 if you could find the points though.
I would break the archers into 3 units of 10, they are more flexible and easier to deploy like that.
I really think Swordmasters would be massacred by shooting so I changed them for WL that I think are a better unit in general especially vs Wood Elves.
Since you already have 3 fast flankers (Reavers, Dragon Princes and Dragon) and 2 other flanking units (White Lions) I dropped a unit of Dragon Princes to allow you the points to make your Phoenix Gaurd 20 (they need static res to be effective), as well as include the Banner of Sorcery, this means that your Archmage will be able to attempt 2 or 3 spells a turn with a good chance of irresistable force.
Finally I added a third Bolt thrower, because you can never have too many and Treemen are hard to kill.
From what I can see you are very vulnerable to magic, no scrolls and only 4 dispel dice. You might be quick enough that this doesn't matter however. I would be interested to hear in a bit more detail what your plan is because as your list stands it has some flaws in it that could be exploited.
The game is being played at 3K. I don't see what you believe is going to give you such an incredible edge over him. Both of the armies do better at larger values, where they can afford to spend more points on units. I play WoodElves as well as HighElves, and I can tell you that at 3K, they are a lethal army.
WoodElves are terrible against magic in high points games. They are 'standard' when it comes to dispelling. They have very few anti-magic items. You could spam the magic phase and expect to have great results. Furthermore, their Heroes are as soft in combat as ours are. What does this tell you? We have 1 advantage, and that's magic.
I understand your want for a dragon, but I would actually drop the Prince-Dragon combo. Add in a pair of L2 Dragon Mages. This will give you an incredibly dangerous magic phases. They should look like this:
L2DMage w/ SilverWand, Ring of Fury
L2DMage w/ Gaurdian Phoenix, Jewel of the Dusk
That, along with your Archmage and Banner of Sorcery, will net you 9+D3powerdice at the start of the phase, and your Dragon Mages can net you an additional 5PD with careful use of Reckless.
The added benefit of the 2 DMages is that you take a great deal of Dragon-Killy-Doom and split it into two powerful beasts. That's twice as many flankers, twice as many fliers, and against a Low-Armor, Low Toughness list like the WoodElves, it's just the amount of damage you need.
If you wanted to make him even angrier, you could always take a BsB, put him on a barded horse, heavy armor, enchanted shield, gem of hoeth. By removing 2 PGs from your 20man unit in the center you could put him there and add a great Leadership bonus along with an extra dice-generator in the list.
Beyond that, I'd make sure that your big units have banners. Flankers don't really need them, as they will be able to benefit from the 'anvil' unit's banner in the combat. However, the flankers could make use of Musicians, to give them some rallying power if they decide to flee.
The other thing to worry about is your cavarly. The WoodElf army will absolutely outmanuever you every time. The only way that I have managed to beat WoodElves in the magic phase, was taking an army of cavalry and attacking very cautiously. The trouble is that as combat pulls together and units become locked in, the woodelves will start slipping your flanks. If you charge your cavarly around willy-nilly, they will be surrounded and destroyed without a second thought. For once, your DPs are just a support unit. Perhaps, with this in mind, you may want to switch them for [slightly] cheaper Silver Helms.
This woodelf army is likely going to try to surround your smaller army. He has 3K to start loading the army out with Dryads and fast cavalry. He could be terribly mean and just bulk his whole army out with those units, but most likely he's going to be fielding a slower Infantry section of the list.
In that case, he will engage you with his ranks of infantry, he treemen, and his treekin, and then slip the flanks with his Dryads and Cavalry.
How do you prevent this certain death?
STAY IN FORMATION! Deploy your units CLOSE together, with just the minimum inch between them. Put your two large units in the center, the 20man Phoenix Gaurd, and the 20man Spearmen. On either side you put your SMs/WLs to flank. BEHIND the SMs/WLs you put your cavalry, facing slightly outwards towards the flanks. On your extreme flanks you put your archers. They are your expendable units, and there are enough of them to slow down anything trying to encircle you. They will have to sell their lives dearly. The dragons and the eagles go in 'reactionary positions' spread throughout your army. The RBTs should stay spread out. They don't have to all go on the hills. They can be placed right up in the main line of the army if you want. I'd put one covering the center, and then another toward each flank with overlapping arcs of sight to the central one.
::Your main worry is going to be thinning down his flankers. The core of his army is able to be dealt with- they're squishy as hell.
::I'd shoot his Dryads and cavalry into the ground as fast as you can. The Dragons can easily scatter his cavalry before them. The eagles can slow down his main line.
::When battle is met, DO NOT LET HIM FLANK YOU. If he has flankers on your far outside edges and your archers are breaking or dead, commit the cavalry there. Otherwise, when battle is met, flank him with your WhiteLions and your Swordmasters as planned, and then use your Cavalry to protect THEIR flanks and backs. The Dragons can always double back and hold of the flanking force, or hit the heavy units in his center.
:: Remember, shooting is only important for a short time. Don't allow yourself to get tied up or demoralized over the loss of your RBTs or your Archers. He could have been targetting the units that are going to give him the most trouble in close combat. Once the lines meet, your archers will do less and less shooting. Your battery of RBTs can handle any remaining shooting, and your archers can quickly be mobilized as combat units in a pinch (obviously, if things are going well, you should keep these guys away from the lethal hack-n-slash). If your RBTs are well spread, as attacks cut off LOS from one, the others can still target units that become available. The wide spread will also keep your RBTs safe from his scouts and attempts to tie-up/kill all of the crews at once.
I think that you will really enjoy this game, especially if you have never played such a large game. Just remember that he still has just as many points as you do, and for every dirty trick you know and you use, he's going to know atleast one dirty trick of his own. 18years of experience is just overkill, so your 2years has made you smart enough to anticipate moves and avoid traps. His years just make him good at reading people, so keep your poker-face on, and keep your plans secret. It's going to be a good game, and I second the notion for a batrep.
I think the best way to outflank him is to try and get Ellyrian Reavers in, and get the Prince on a dragon. I prefer using a Prince on a moon dragon, as it frees up points, and it is still amazing and as good as every other dragon in the game.
How about Shadow Warriors? That guy used them really well against Dark Elves in WD344, and they are less than 100pts for 5 and a champion.
The Ellyrian Reavers and the dragon are typically great choices for flanking an enemy, however, in this situation, there's no need for cavalry, or an uber dragon. Below are two examples of this:
Ellyrian unit of 5, ~90pts
5 wounds, s4 charge, 10atacks, 5+ save
Swordmasters unit ~90pts
9 wounds, s5 attacks, 18 attacks, 5+ save
Since the Woodelves can outmanuever him, he doesn't need unit who can travel fast and outdistance the main army. All he needs are units that can wait until the big center units are in combat, and then flank whoever is fighting them. With a 10in charge range, White Lions or Sword Masters would work fine, if not better.
The Prince on a Dragon as he's running costs 640pts. For that price, you can get nearly 2 lvl1 DragonMages. Granted, they'd be "naked" without levels or equipment, but it's two dragons. The comparisons between the dragons that you are getting is not much different
7 wounds, 6 attacks, hits on 3's, wounds on 2's
2 Sun Dragons (2 DMages instead of 1 prince)
10 Woudns, 8 attacks, hits on 3's, wounds on 2's
The DMages also give him an edge in the magic phase, which is somewhere that the WoodElves suffer. Along with giving him twice the number of 'flanking' units. Of course, a Chariot is almost identical to the DMage, except that it doesn't cast magic and is FAR cheaper.
As for the Shadow Warriors, these are WoodElves. The great thing with the SWs against the Dark Elves is that they ALWAYS get hatred, not just the first turn of a combat. So against woodelves, yeah, they might be okay, but really the WoodElves will just counter them with their own scouts, or shoot them to death early on. There's not much need for them as warmachine hunters, and they don't negate rank bonuses when they flank charge.