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I've been building my mojo up for a beating for the last couple of months trying to get a HE list that I can get behind. I was going to go magic heavy, but dropped that since I've always had a penchant for 2-3 miscasts with my HE and while their magic can be effective, I've always struggled to get anything more than 1 spell off per turn which seemed like a poor investment for 600+ pts in an army that is always outnumbered. So I will try the magic defense list and see where it gets me.
Here is the list - - Please comment and see if you have any suggestions for making it better or worse or possible problems or opponents that might give me a hard time. Lately it seems that everyone in our group is going magic heavy or nasty heavy. We've got mean tourney winning VC, Slann double engine LM, Bloodthirster demons, decent TK armies etc.
Prince great weapon, Caledor armor, Guardian Phoenix, Reaver bow
BSB Sword of Might, Temakador's gauntlets, barded horse, dragon armor, shield
lvl1 annulian crystal
lvl1 scroll, scroll
17 White Lions FC lion banner
17 White Lions FC Standard of Balance
14 Swordmasters Banner of Arcane Protection FC
White Lions will be 6 wide usually and probably take the flanks with SM in the middle. There will be space for the bolt throwers and chariots to weave/shoot in between for the most part unless the enemy dictates otherwise. I'd like to shoot well but get into combat early enough to chop up bad guys if needed. Hence the hopefully rerollable stubborn units and the lawnmower unit in the middle.
I will have a problem against a blood thirster (unless he takes that flaming blade and then I'll hunt him with my Prince or bsb) and wraiths ( I can really only shoot them with reaver bow and then charge them with the bsb) I've thought about taking the gem of courage and the amulet of light, but don't know what to cut. I've got to drop a musician to get at 2250 exactly anyway. Saurus and Stegadons will give me trouble as well, but I'll just have to hope on getting lucky and minimizing damage, and redirecting charges or taking charges to minimize attacks.
Would it be worth it to drop the arcane protection and grab the warbanner? or drop the banner altogether and maybe try to bump up one chariot to lion chariot?
Last edited by buckero0; May 27th, 2009 at 14:43.
Yes this looks like a very good list especially once you get into combat. Your swordmasters are a major concern. People with shooting will go for them with everything they have and suddenly your center block is gone. White lions are more survivable against shooting but this is just your list. You only have to survive one or two rounds of shooting and magic as your units should by then be into close combat. ASF makes that easy as we do not care if we get the charge off or not.
Please let us all know how your list does because there are a lot of HE players out here that want to be able to win against everyone. Seems like the only way to beat your normal daemons is to go magic heavy or the star dragon. While I like playing those lists I am more vanilla myself as I do not want to depend on any one thing.
I agree the SM are very frail. Actually the whole army is frail (that's what I get for playing with elves, right?) In that case I'd probably push for combat a bit quicker. That's also why I have the banner of AP, I knew they would be a target. I wonder if the warbanner wouldn't be wiser though. I only need 7-8 to survive, cause once they hit combat they should hopefully kill some enemy troops. To be honest, an opponent could easily magic my WL and shoot my SM and I would be without an army, there's not much I could do about it. But that's how all of my HE armies have been in the past as well.
My white lion themed army was based on talking to a friend who had played HE years ago. He used the captain of the PG in a large block of white lions. That gave them magical protection and with their protection against shooting this is great. Then he had a large block of sword masters with a BSB with the arcane protection banner. He also placed a mage there with that item that requires plus one to hit with shooting. So I took a page from his list and added a few touches of my own. Korhil in the lion chariot and a BSB with the white lions. Thanks again and I love reading your posts.
My only concern is with the chariots, in theory they are great but I can see them being locked out of combats due to your wider than average frontage in all your units.
I know that when you charge this won't happen and our movement should give you the charge often but that would be my only major concern.
thanks for posting allonaire.
I agree with you on the chariots. I actually am going to play this for the first time tonight. I have to practice using chariots in general. While most pony chariots seem to always roll a 1 on the impact hits, I thought I could also use them to take out fast cav and keep flyers at bay or to even take out warmachines if I get lucky. 18 inches is a pretty far-reaching charge range. If I start at the deployment zone and meander 8-9 inches up, then I've got a pretty commanding charge range against stuff in his deployment zone. Hopefully my shooting will be enough to make him move up. Also I can put the chariots in the middle and as long as I move my blocks right, I can even wizard snipe with them (as long as I don't flee through my own troops.)
There's not a whole lot I can get with those points otherwise. If you've got suggestions though, I'm all ears.
Which banner do you think I should/shouldn't take on the SMasters.
Last edited by buckero0; May 28th, 2009 at 15:10.
I like this list a lot. Hard to underestimate the abilities of the elite elven troops.
I do worry about a couple of things though:
1) Swordmasters are very fragile to shooting, (you have pointed this out yourself), so I would definately consider removing something as points intensive as a banner, or command model from them. Worst thing that can happen for you is for someone to soften them up, then get an extra 100pts for the banner. Run them plain, maybe a musician if you really want.
2) The drop in command will let you get hold of the amulet of light on one of your champions (white lions), meaning you can put that wraith thing to bed.
As for the bloodthirster, that would be a problem for any army. Remember that you strike first though. Even on a flank, you will get 2-3 attacks at the monster, and who knows, you might even wound it. Try using shooting and charge it if you get the chance. Better to fight it on your terms than theirs
Stegadons could be march blocked for a turn by your great eagle giving your bolt throwers a 2nd, or perhaps 3rd turn of single shotting them.
In the end, it is a good, ballanced and not cheesy list. It should do fine.
Last edited by gingerninja; May 28th, 2009 at 15:58.
that's kind of the way I was leaning, maybe drop everything but a champ or musician in the SMasters and try to fit gem of courage or amulet of light in the mix.
I think the stegadons can be handled with bolt throwers and concentrated fire from archers, etc. I'm actually more afraid of multiple engines than I am of the stegadons.
I'll try the list out tonight just to see if my high elf dice-rollin' curse has eased up (it's been nearly a year) and to see if there are kinks in the list somewhere. Then I'll post back after I've played a few games.
Okay, I've had 2 bouts with this list and it has performed very well despite my dice rolling (failed 4 leadership 10 chariot tests 1st game and my swordmasters fled off the board despite having gem of courage) 2nd game wasn't too much better dice rolling. My prince is averaging hitting about 15% with his bow and his great weapon through both games, my noble hits 33% of the time which is about average for me which is why I dumped HE in the first place.
My main concern is my Prince who isn't really giving me anything but bow shots which a noble could do just as well. I haven't found a combat prince setup I like that is one foot. If anyone has a prince setup they like that doesn't have the reaver bow - let me know.
I don't like the bsb, but I think he is crucial to this list providing rerollable stubborns for the WL units.
My other concern is for the chariots. I got them for mobility and the ability to hit deep units turn 2 or chase down enemies after hitting the flank and combo front with my WL. They are so frail though. I really don't know what to get in their place. 170 pts could get me another eagle, another bolt thrower and I could split the swordmasters into 2 units (but I'm starting to have trouble deploying already) I could get a small unit of dragonprinces as well I think. Shadow warriors only work well some of the time and are a bit too expensive in my opinion.
Any one have ideas as to what to do to change/tweak the list?
I really like having low magic, but I haven't really fought anyone with super magic yet, so I could just be enjoying the lull.
If you want a close combat prince then the classic setup is normally the following:
Armour of Caledor
Vambraces of Defence
Amulet of Light
This guy is really hard to kill and dishes out some serious hurt with 4 Ws 7 Str 6 attacks that hit first, all of which are magical.
As for the chariots, I would drop them for 1 more eagle and maybe 8 more swordmasters. With the others that should give you 22, so one unit of 10 and one of 12. That is only if you don't like the chariots. I find them useful, but then I use 2 lion ones