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Hello all, first post here, new to Warhammer/high elves/tabletop gaming. Realized that my love of Tolkien should not have led me to choose High Elves as they seem rather frail! Sadly I have already purchased my army and am taking on Warriors of Chaos in a couple days! Let me know what you think!
Lords: Teclis with Lore of Shadows
Heroes: Lvl 1 mage w/ silver wand and jewel of the dusk (125pts total)
Lvl 1 mage w/ Annulian Crystal and silver wand (150pts), both channeling Life
Noble BSB w/ heavy armour, shield, lance, and banner of sorcery (170pts)
Core: 20 Sea Guard w/ FC
31 Spearmen w/ FC ... and Teclis!
Special: 10 Swordmasters w/FC
15 White Lions w/FC
10 Silver Helms w/FC . . . and Noble BSB
Rare: 2 RBTs
In my first game shooting didn't work against Brettonnians so I became disillusioned with shooting altogether, which is why I left out archers.
Ok any thoughts, folks? I'm keen to learn how to play High Elves well.
You can only take one silver wand. also, you can't have two arcane items on the same character, so either the crystal or the wand will have to come off the one mage and jewel or wand off the other. Also, the noble can't have a lance if he is unmounted. Did you forget to list that he's mounted? I suspect you did as you put him in with the silverhelms.
I'd pop a few silverhelms off and make both your mages lvl2. if you're going to be brining banner of sorcery, and have teclis, you might as well have as many spells to toss as possible. It'll also increase your odds of getting the life spells you want. While its true that cav needs 2 ranks to disrupt now, I don't find it to be an effective use of points. So you don't get to disrupt the ranks. If you do it right, you'll still get the +1 for charging, and with all the extra attacks they shouldn't have much left anyway. I like Phoenix guard over white lions, and PG make a much better bunker for teclis than spearmen, but both of those are down to playstyle. if you want to keep the white lions go for it.
I would toss the crystal and jewel (and one of the wands), upgrade both mages, change the WL to PG, and give the PG your banner of sorcery. That unit will take alot to kill, which means your banner sticks around longer. Sacrifice up to 4-5 silverhelms to make the changes listed. use any left over points to give your noble something to help him stay alive (armor of caledor, armor of destiny, etc). Anything left after that I would use to beef up the LSG.
With Lore of Shadows on Teclis your spear block can get very scary. Thats an insane amount of Re-roll-able, Always Strikes First, str8 attacks with Okkam's Mind Razor.
So instead of keeping them way back, which I guess was the plan if Teclis goes there, I would try to let them be the first speed bump for his main block to hit and then make sure that Teclis gets an Irresisteble Force Mind Razor in on them.
Hold Teclis back in the Sea Guard unit instead in my opinion - they can stay back and fire off a few arrows and protect your RBTs from stuff like Marauder horsemen.
Don't expect too much from your Silver helms against Chaos Warriors. Your Sword Masters and White Lions can hurt them though - they are some of the only infantry that WoC fear.
So let the enemy come to you and try and make it so that his biggest baddest unit hits your Mind Razor enhanced Spearmen. Try to encircle him with your Silver Helms, but don't attacke him until he is engaged with your infantry to his front (unless you get a really soft target, which in some WoC armies frankly doesn't exist).
Good luck =)
Thanks heaps so far guys, I'm loving the advice!
Comments: Damn I didn't realize I was breaking so many rules about arcane items . . . do you think that if I upgrade the wizards my magic will effectively shut an army down? Shooting is so random, but magic seems even more so . . . and yet if I can pull off a successful magic phase it seems I get the W. Finccht I like your comments but I'm curious why you like PG over Lions. And Filthor thanks I think I'll just drop the Silver Helms altogether it seems they'd be mostly ineffective against WoC. Thanks guys!
2 more things:
- I don't know if this was already your plan, but I recommend that you deploy the Spearmen 8 models wide and 4 deep - that way every single elf gets an attack (Warriors of Chaos units are often pretty wide because they want as many models in base contact as possible. So you should get the whole front rank in base contact).
- Try and make sure that your elite units (White Lions and Sword Masters) end up in a situation where you can limit the number of attacks against them. For example by fighting small units where the enemy don't have anyone to 'step up' when you kill his guys. If you take on a unit of Chaos Warriors with enough models to hit back with a whole front and supporting rank then your small elite units will turn into nothing very fast.
the above post details why I like PG... everything else dies too fast. The way HE used to win in 7th was killing everything before they got the chance to attack back. Now that they get to attack back anyway by "stepping up", it really shows how fragile HE are. Especially our elite infantry. No customization, and they've only got heavy armor. No shields, no parry saves, just heavy armor. Oh, and T3. Gotta love that. Lions pack a nice punch, but only agains very heavily armored foes. A block of 30 maruaders with great weapons would tear through some white lions for half the points. Swordmasters pack a bigger punch with 2 attacks each (although only S5), but because of this they get the crap shot out of them or become the target of every magic spell known to man. And heaven forbid you wiff on your rolls, because those guys are going to DIE once they reach combat. They're more like suicide bombers now. Lots of damage, but only good once. Phoenix guard, on the other hand, stick around. They're not as effective at killing things, but with the 4+ ward save and fear, they last alot longer. The perfect anvil. Let your characters / flanking unit handle the rest, the PG are there to roadblock the main unit. And if they can't kill it, they can't get any points or the bannner (a great place to put banner of sorcery). I like the PG because they can take a hit, something no other HE (save maybe dragon princes) can do. That and, lets face it, the models are pretty cool too.
I was trying to figure out where all of your points were going, and then I saw that you have 2 mages and a lot of Full Commands.
My suggestion is to drop the first mage, boost the second to L2, and give him the Seer Staff so that he can pick his spells. Then, give Teclis the Lore of Life and give your L2 the Lore of Shadow, making sure to pick Okkam's Mind Razor and either Enfeebling Foe or The Withering for your other spell. This way you can either make your Toughness seem a lot higher (by reducing enemy strength) or make it easier for another of your blocks to wound the enemy (by reducing their Toughness).
That's going to free you up some points. I would then try to either balance out the unit sizes of your Spears and LSG, and make them both the same troops type. Right now you are giving yourself a handicap. You feel like your LSG aren't nearly as survivable as your Spears, and your opponent also knows this. So your LSG just sit around waiting for a weak opponent to fight, or your enemy rushes them and tries for the easy kill. Providing 2 equal units/targets is going to make your army more flexible, and more solid.
10 SwordMasters, and 15 WhiteLions- sort of having the same problem here as you are with your Spears. Add to that, you have 10Helms hanging around with no mission.
You should use SM and WLs as flankers, who stick close to your line regiments (spears in your case). Whenever the enemy charges the Spears, these guys swing around and hit them in the side. The Spears fight to the front, taking the casualties and dealing with multiple-ranks of attacks from the enemy, while your more expensive troops stay and fight to the flank, dealing out all the punishment.
Being flankers, they really don't need a banner- they'll get the same +1CR for the banner in the Spear regiment that they're helping. The Champion can probably also go, although a Swordmaster champion can actually deal some damage to lower level heroes. It's just a way to conserve points ultimately.
With your SMs and WLs guarding flanks, your Silver Helms are left with nobody to protect. They could go sally forth and try to kill something alone, but they don't hit very hard, they're expensive, and they're carting your BSB off into oblivion with them. You have a small enough army as it is- you need as many elves standing up each turn as possible, and you need as many bodies in the ranks as you can get. To this end, I'd suggest dropping this Cavalry unit altogether and swapping them (as well as the back 5 WLs) for a regiment of 20 PGs. If you can figure out how to get the points into your army, give them the Banner of Sorcery or the Banner of Arcane Protection. This makes a solid bunker for Teclis and your BSB.
The BSB should also drop the Banner of Sorcery. You'll be giving that to your PGs. Instead, give this guy a Wardsave (Talisman of Protection or Armor of Destiny) and then give him a Greatweapon. He'll add a lot of damage to a unit that can really use the extra hitting power.
As for tactics- Teclis is standing around with an easily thrown Lore of Life. Regrowth is your friend, as well as Flesh to Stone. His casting should be unstoppable. If you really need the help, you can funnel some of your dice over to the Shadow Mage and try to throw a handful at Okkams. Really, he could probably stay a L1, as you'll probably never attempt to cast any other spell all game.
Your RBTs are for whittling down enemy numbers, but also making sure that small enemy regiments don't try to do the same job as your small WL and SM regiments- that is, flank your boys. The RBTs should be knocking out small enemy cavalry regiments, as well as taking on any big monsters you might come across (elves HATE big monsters).
Elves are a tough army to play, because to do truly well, they need to work together like a machine. This is difficult, because instead of most people who are fielding 5 infantry regiments, you're really only fielding 3 (your SM and WL are part of the Spears). It will be tempting to toss the Elites in against enemy regiments, but be very careful with that. Instead, try to use shooting and any damage spells you might have (Dwellers) to knock the extra enemy regiments down to a manageable size.
You'll get the hang of it. Warriors are definitely an easier army to start with, but they don't really teach you anything- they're the lazy way out. You can just run across the field and usually pulp anything you come into contact with. If you cant, well... you lose the game. The Elves on the other hand will make a much better player, and High Elves are right beside the Warriors as far as being the most competitive armies in the game. Elves will also usually smash Warriors. I've played both sides of the sword, I'm speaking from experience here.
HEvWoC Post-Mortem: High Elves suck
So I played my WoC friend and he whupped me solidly. The highlights of the game for me were: 1) my 5 remaining swordmasters taking out 3 heavy knights of Chaos and causing them and their Sorcerer general to flee the board. 2) My White Lions catching his fast cav and beating them, causing them to flee (they later rallied, and then a hellcannon dropped a rock on my lions)
Other than that, I was smashed. High elf core units just don’t kill things, especially heavily armoured things. All it took was one round of combat and I would have inflicted on average 4 wounds (he’d save most of them) to his 7 or so (I wouldn’t), and inevitably my boys would flee that same round or the next one and be overrun. Phoenix Guard proved a huge letdown to me as they killed all of one Chaos Warrior, lost 4 guard in return, lost the combat, failed the break test, and fled the field. So much for survivability.
Now I did have some pathetic dice rolls (both RBTs missed in one turn of shooting, failing leadership tests all over the place, etc.), but that does not make up for the lack of hitting power against a strong enemy. I was overmatched in every combat, and none of my units would stick around to fight. Magic phases were ok but I should have stuck with 2 wizards and not tried to cast like 4 spells per turn, focusing instead on getting maybe 2 guaranteed awesome ones off each phase.
As a new player I found this, my second game, to be extremely frustrating and disappointing and frankly don’t know if I want to keep playing Warhammer, certainly at least not as a HE general. Games bog down in the middle turns and if you’re losing you can only sit back and watch Can someone talk me back from the edge?
as a new player, maybe HE wasn't the right choice. I don't know what everyone else thinks, but I find that to use HE effectively takes more experience than playing most other races. Mainly because of how fragile HE are. You win the battle, especially over WoC, in the movement phase. Sure, you typically need to survive the first round, and you said you had bad rolls.
By contrast, WoC are really easy to start with. 1) Move forward. 2) try to get into combat. 3) rape everything. WoC are that easy. HE take more planning and tactics than just engage and destroy. If you're frustrated with the HE, thats one thing, but don't get frustrated with the game simply because you didn't win. If you want, see if you're friend will let you switch armies with him/her for a game or two. You play as WoC, and get a better feel for the game. You'll learn how sometimes charging straight in isn't worth it (like when the enemy has the perfect flaking position). Once you get the hange of the smaller details, you'll enjoy the game much more I think.
I see you have a BSB and maybe another fighty hero or two are useful = BSB for the Ld tests rerolls (rerolling on steadfast Ld 8 should mean that you are sticking around in most instances). You heroes ASF with Great weapons against the enemy, and this will ensure that they win most challenges - heck even your elites unit champions are more than capable of winning challenges because of the ASF rules against most stuff apart from maybe Chaos Knight champions or heroes.
Core - deploy deep and you should always be steadfast against the shallow formations of Warriors of Chaos apart from Marauders, rerolling to hit and 4 ranks of attacks makes up for the insane 3+ save and 2S4 attacks, or 4+ and 3 S4 attacks. Deployig wide just makes it easier for WoC to get all their modles in B2B. Large units of 30 spears = 250 odd points with FC, and should be capable of taking down the opposing 15-odd warriors in a stand-up fight.
Warriors are a strong army, but it shouldn't be a cake walk - the captain ought to be able to provide more info as I don't really know warriors that well as I don't play them much, and only have a few units of my own, but what I do know is that our army is more than capable of seeing off anything but the most determined attack.
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