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Finally played my first game of fantasy the other day. I lost horribly, but I don't really know if it was more the list or just not knowing the game very well. Anyway, here is the list I used, and hopefully we can make it better. Any strategies and tips you have to offer would also be much appreciated!
Nobel with Greatsword, Dragon Armor, Barded Steed, Shield (added due to leftover points)
Level 2 Mage with Silver Wand and Ring of Fury (High Magic)
40 Spearmen with Full Command
14 Swordmasters with Musician
14 White Lions with Musican
5 Dragon Princes
5 Shadow Warriors
Repeater Bolt Thrower
Total: 1499 pts
I was playing Vs Skaven, and I definitely wasn't helped by consistently rolling 3 or 4 for power dice during my magic phases. It would have been helpful to get both Drain Magic and Shield of Saphery off, but I just never had enough power and would have to just choose 1, I don't think I ever got both of those powers off. I also neve ractually succeeded at dispelling, resulting in my swordmasters getting fried by warp lightning. Bright spots of my army were the White Lions, who actually got into combat, the shadow walkers who killed a warp lightning cannon, and the Bolt Thrower, who did quite a bit of damage to some rat ogres. My Spearmen managed to get into combat as well, but it involved getting surrounded by slaves and seen off just through sheer rank bonuses. The dragon princes had a failed charge (I rolled a 5, I needed 6 or higher), which effectively doomed them.
I also need someone to explain to me why exactly eagles are good. I took him to hunt war machines, but he ended up getting killed by enemy skirmishers. I mean, he's only got the 2 attacks in close combat, so I don't really know.
Any pointers are greatly appreciated. Sort of suffering from information overload in regards to the rules, so layman's terms would be awesome (I've played 40k for 10 years though, so if you can relate concepts in Fantasy to 40k, that I'd understand )
The enemy's gate is down
Firstly you were playing Skaven, regarded by many as a top tier army at the moment in 8th due to there ability to field hordes cheaply but in doing so also gives them a high Ld value, 2 things in 8th which has become ever so more important, so dont feel too bad if it didnt go amazing against them.
Generals seem to be doing less well in cavalry units these days even if being mounted adds to there armour, simply because unless you hit something in the flanks then chances are the cavalry unit will bounce, and also because of the randomness of your charge distance as you experianced you can no longer line up the garaunteed charge in the right place when you need it. I sugest putting him on foot or even better making him a bsb and try to make your mage a lord lvl.
Lord lvl mage in 1500pts is nice as your getting that extra 4 to your value and not many armies at this level will be able to counter it. to make the most of this drop high magic and choose a lore that will benifit you armys week points. Lores that seem to be doing well at the moment for HE are Life and Shadow as they have spells to either increase your stats or decrease your opponents, making it easier for your troops to do damage. Life is also goo as its bonus ability will also heal models in your army when you get a spell off.
Eagles in 8th. not good. they used to be good as you could fly them fast up to a problem unit and sit infront of it at an angle, meaning the enemy unit would have to either charge the eagle at which point it is now facing a direction it doesnt want to be, try going round which can be even more of a problem as with 8 inches you automaticaly march blocked units as you couldnt pass before on a Ld check. that left them with the other alternative of spending a turn and ranged units trying to bring down this 50pt eagle, meanwhile your units are doing what they want. Also you could run them up and into a warmachine crew fairly confident that they would hold up a turn or two of shooting if not kill the crew entirely. These days your just better off with shadow warriors like you have. (IMO)
Repeat Bolt Throwers are not that good anymore. they used to be able to kill off enemy war machine crew easy enough with multishot of 6 darts at S4 BS4. you were looking to kill at least one member a turn per RBT but as you now roll against the war machines T of normaly 7+ you need 6s to wound, so your looking at single bolts which masively reduces your chance to hit. I would also never take less than 2 if i was taking them as concentrated fire power is the way to go if you take them at all, so a ranged unit like archers to sit them alongside is great, especialy as it means you can be pooring 20 S3 shots and 12 S4 shots into a single unit. its the only way to do RBT these days. Otherwise get a chariot or somthing to support your infantry.
SM and WL look fine, but would drop the DP unlessyou absolutly need them as they bring little punch now cavalry has been nerffed. (dont worry i just got some DP and dont think il be using them now either untill bigger games for the same reason). Cavalry is good at breaking units on the charge, but Matt Ward doesnt think past his beard, so now units are pretty much stubborn all the time because they have more ranks then cavalry, and can always use the generals unmodified Ld which is going to be high, Cavalry cannot do its job properly in the game as it exsists.
hope this helps a little.
'Baiting' means setting your opponent up so that he is pretty much forced to charge your Eagle if he wants to go around it (it works best with troops who must charge, rules like 'Frenzy' for example). You let him declare the charge, then you flee, then you hope to outrun him and hope to rally. It works a lot better with Ellyrian Reavers than it does with Eagles, but ERs are pretty expensive for what they actually do.
Redirecting is a little different than baiting, because it means that you're allowing your opponent to actually make contact with the Eagle (choosing HOLD! instead of FLEE! for your reaction). You position the Eagle so that it's at a slight angle. You opponent has to line his troops up along the Eagle, so now he is also at an angle. When he inevitably kills your Eagle and Overruns, he will end up at that same angle, but in front of (hopefully) another block of your soldiers, who can then flank him and rip him apart.
You can also use eagles to redirect by putting them in front of one of your units that you think the enemy might charge. Hopefully he'll clip the eagle on his way in, stopping the charge and forcing him to line up awkwardly against the eagle so that you can flank him later.
Unfortunately, the new 8th edition rules have really nerfed all of this. Enemies can take a free reform after they defeat you in combat, instead of overrunning or pursuing, meaning that after the "redirect", they'll just turn to face the next threat. They also don't have to charge in a straight line, they're allowed to move and wheel as normal, so long as they end up in base to base with you. Most people just still move straight in because it's the easiest way to measure.
Edit: Saltrock managed to finish his post before me (had to cook dinner) so he's covered a lot of this information as well. The only thing that I disagree with, is his view on RBTs not being any good. To me, they're really the only viable shooting that our army has. Our archers are vastly overprice (10 of them for 10pts more than an RBT, and 10 S3 shots do jack-all), and although we have a lot of regiments capable of taking bows, we're still dealing with small amounts of S3 shots, and LSG are too expensive to waste as a "shooting" regiment. RBTs are our only access to S4 shooting, and their Single Shot is one of our best ways to deal with enemy monsters and the likes.
hey, i wuold drop the eagle an also drop 4 WL and put you'r noble on a eagle whit thad thing thad you shoot a bold from a bold trower and if u have points left over an exstra DP?
Dust- spellcheck buddy.
Nobles also can't take the Bow of the Seafarer, as it costs more than their 50pt magic allowance. They can take the ReaverBow though, but 3S5 is sort of an odd shooting profile.
Nobles can do well on an eagle, because they use the Eagle's wounds characteristic of 3, instead of their own. A noble with a Greatweapon, Dragon Armor, and Talisman of Protection (4+ ward) will do quite well when it comes to tracking down Warmachines. This alteration wouldn't cost you much either, since you already have the Eagle in your roster and you'll save points from the current Noble's steed.
Thanks for the pointers guys. I'll draw up another list and post it here soon!
I was also wondering, as I up this to 2000 points, is there an effective way to take the Prince on the Griffin that came with the Island of Blood set, or are Archmages too essential for our army's success to use Lord Points on Princes? I was thinking of arming him with a greatsword, the armor of caledor and vambraces of defence, but that comes to 442 points, which is quite an investement. I could still fit 2 mages and a BSB with the banner of sorcery at 2000, but that accounts for almost half my points! Just curious since the model is so damn cool.
Last edited by Der_Kaiser; May 11th, 2011 at 04:04.
The enemy's gate is down
Okay, let's talk about the 1,500 point list first. Make your Noble a BSB. High elves cost too much to lose by running away. Mage with Silverwand is always a must on my list.
Core - Unless you take LSG, large units don't work to well with Skaven IMO as a unit of 50 slaves will hold you up for several turns. Best thing about LSG is that you can do your shots, stand and shoot, then get your attacks first. In my eyes that's a 3 for 1 deal. Not to mention a 5+AS, Wardsave with High lore too...
Special - Great choices, I normally field 12-14 SM or WL as you only need small units to do the damage required. I would suggest keeping these away from slaves if your enemy has any and go for rat ogres, monks, doom wheels etc.
I would drop the Dragon Princes. They work wonders as a unit but in 1,500 points they are a point waster. I would suggest extra core or another SM unit.
Rare - BT work well for most people but I never field them as I find they never make their points back against armies like Skaven. In a 1,500 drop the eagle and go for more special or core. They won't get many war machines more than likely in such a small battle.
But good list none the less.
About a 2,000 point battle. - A Prince on a griffin is too over priced I feel. For a small amount of extra points you can take a dragon... But even then it's a points waster in a 2,000. I would say take an Archmage, BSB, Lv2 Mage and maybe Korhil if you want a unit to be stubborn with a strong unit leader.
You can also field a unit of 48 Lothern Sea Guard + Shields + Full Command for 649 points. Put your BSB and Korhil here and you are laughing.
Hope this helps. ^^
Last edited by Vedith; May 18th, 2011 at 11:45.
High Elves \ Ogre Kingdoms \ Lizardmen \ Blood Angels \ Dark Angels \ Dark Elves
W100+/D20+/L100+ \ W17/D0/L2 \ W1/D2/L2 \ W3/D0/L3 \ W7/D2/L9 \ W1/D0/L1
Ok folks, here's a new list for 1500 points. Let me know if you think this is better:
Archmage (Lvl 4) with Book of Hoeth and Lore of Shadows
Battle-Standard Bearer with Heavy Armor, Greatsword, and Banner of Sorcery
23 Spearmen with Standard Bearer and Musician (+Archmage, 6x4)
23 Spearmen with Standard Bearer and Musician (+BSB, 6x4)
14 Swordmasters (7x2)
14 White Lions (7x2)
Repeater Bolt Thrower
I kept the bolt thrower because otherwise I wouldn't really have much for range, but I'd also consider replacing it with some Shadow Warriors, and maybe taking Phoenix Guard instead of the lions and having the archmage go with them, but I really don't know. Let me know what you think.
The enemy's gate is down