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2000pt HE semi-competitive list

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1K views 9 replies 5 participants last post by  Castiell 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Hey guys! My friend and I have come up with a list that hopefully isn't too competitive nor struggle against friendlies.
I am still new at this, so please don't grill me too hard if I've made a mistake; that being said feel free to tear my list apart and any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Lords:
Prince 412
GW
Armour of Caledor
Guardian Phoenix
Griffon

Heroes:
Noble 122
GW
Heavy armour
BSB

Core:
Lothern Sea Guard 535
x40
Musician
Standard Bearer
Shields

Special:
White Lions 505
x30
Full Command
Skeinsilver

White Lion Chariot xxx
x3

1994 points

Tactic: My LSG will be on one flank prepared to shoot at whatever the current best target is. My WL will take the center with my BSB and hold the line; mean while my WL chariots will be on the opposite flank to my LSG with the Prince. The tactic is to charge my chariots and prince into the flank of the enemy in theory shattering it. This will force the enemy to either move towards the rest of my army thus allowing me to sandwich or allow me to squash them into a corner. I realise the charging flank may seem a bit over the top, but I fear what a cannon or two (god help me if three) could do to my chariots or Prince if fewer in number.

Please leave thoughts, comments and advice - all are appreciated. Thanks :)







 
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#2 ·
No magic? Magic is what makes the High Elves go from a mediocre elite army to a great elite army. I'm not saying it can't be done, but right now you really have nothing stopping your opponents from just magicing you to death. I would at least include a lvl 2 wizard.
 
#3 ·
Personally, I would always take a sun dragon instead of Griffon, as its a 30 points difference, but a 1 wound, toughness, and leadership(minimal use) and a breath weapon while losing 1 point of initiative. Not a bad trade-off. Otherwise, I agree with no magic. With no magic, you are a massive stonethrower/unit affecting spell target. 1 Dwellers and your LSG lose half their number and might flee, repeat with white lions, and even if they dont flee, you still get screwed. BSB's too weak, he'll be targeted in CC and that will give your opponent 222 VP. Maybe get him helmet of fortune or dragon helm or SOMETHING that will give him a better AS and a Wardsave.
 
#4 ·
Welcome to the forum- glad to see new members, especially more High Elves. Your post was fine- I did have to edit it though because GW gets a bit irritable when we post up 'naked' points costs. For example, I could divide the value you gave for your Chariots by 3, and see how much a WLC costs. It's ok if they have upgrades, but you can't post any "hard" points down.

I like the list so far, I think that 30 WLs is a bit much, but I suppose I understand if you want to use them as an anvil. You think your LSG won't hold the line? You're talking 60S3 attacks before the enemy can even swing, and when you have ASF on your CC attacks, that's a lot more like 100S3 attacks. I promise you that they will do MORE damage than your 60S5 attacks.
If you could break those WLs down into blocks of ~15 Swordmasters, you could use them on the flanks of your LSG to make sure that lighter units don't catch your flank, and to help break enemy regiments off the front of the LSG.
That's all personal preference though.

Now- your 3 WLCs. Firstly, I find 'Kitty Karts' to be one of the most pointlessly overpriced units in our book right now. Great, you cause Fear and your Lions and Crew hit at S5 as opposed to S3. Your crew on a TC will actually hit at S4 on the charge, which is the only round of combat you should EVER fight with a Chariot. Chariots aren't line-breakers. Nowhere near. They're what you use when you're units are already engaged and you need a little extra push to get the win. Unfortunately for Elves- the price of a WLC is practically the same as 10 Swordmasters, who do the job astonishingly well by comparison. The only thing I will concede to the Chariots, is that they have a base-size that is about 1/3 the size of a comparable regiment of ifantry or cavalry.

But lets look into your flanking force:

3x WLCs
3D6 S5 Impact hits - average of 10.5
6 S6 rider attacks (rerollable- 12 S6 attacks)
12 S5 Lion attacks
= 34.5 attacks total
12 Wounds, Sv 4+ (equivalent 24 wounds)

Now, my suggestion is this: drop the WLCs, and field 2 regiments of 10 Silver Helms for the exact same price.

20 S5 attacks (rerollable- 40 S5 attacks)
10 S3 attacks
= 50 attacks, with no chance to flop impact hits
20 wounds, 3+ save (equivalent 60 wounds)
+1 rank bonus -2 ranks means that they negate enemy rank bonuses as well, so this is far more than just a +1CR.

Vs a Cannonball- on average you will lose 2 Knights, or 1 Chariot (.5W remaining)
Vs Unit-affecting spells (Dwellers etc) - you will lose a percentage of your Knights, and the Chariot is either dead entirely, or completely unphased.

Now, if you're willing to concede that you could drop just 5 White Lions, to put the unit at 25, you could add shields to your Silver Helms and get your Prince onto a Dragon instead. If you were to reduce your Lions to 18 models and go for a 6x3 formation, you could upgrade those SilverHelms to Dragon Princes and gain an additional 10 attacks (2A each for the front rank). If you dropped the 30 Lions, you could field 15 Swordmasters on the flank of your LSG, boost the Silvers to Dragon Princes, and get your Prince onto a Dragon.

As far as the Prince on a Dragon is concerned, could I please suggest that you get yourself a BSB and a Mage instead? You're going to need magic defense at the very least, if not access to Lore of Life to keep your units fighting fit.
 
#5 ·
While I find playing cav in two ranks, or playing silverhelms at all, ever, to be a somewhat curious suggestion, the important things have been said - you need magic, and you need something worth the points in place of the kitty carts.
 
#7 · (Edited)
It's true that Cavalry did really get hit with the Nerf-bat. I tend not to use it at all in any of my armies, even my Warriors where I have access to Chaos Knights. However, I have never been fond of chariots. He's running a 'refused flank', which may or may not work these days.

Thanks to the cavalry/chariot nerfs, and the new focus on large units with several ranks, and the ability for new shooting rules and new spells to utterly obliterate MSU style armies, Fantasy has become much more of a "battle line" style game, which is why I laugh when anyone ever seriously considers maneuverability. It's sad, because it took a lot of the tactics out of Fantasy and reduced almost every army to some variation of either rushing at the enemy head-on, or trying to kill them before they get there.

I could definitely suggest the stock-standard Infantry list to him:

30-50 LSG
2x 15 SM
Teclis/Book Equivalent with a Bunker and Banner of Sorcery
BSB w/ Armor of Caledor, Great Weapon, and Guardian Phoenix
and whatever 150pts you want to spend while kidding yourself that your list is "unique".

This is a friendly list though, and while we here on LO usually go straight to the tournament grade lists when asked to comment (and probably should- people can figure out from there if they're too powerful and water it down with frivolous choices), I'd like to give this guy a chance to try something out before tearing his list a new one.

Take the White Lions vs. Swordmasters for example. I say use 15 Swordmasters (available in plastic through trades, IoB, or EBay) because they score about 10% more kills on average than a regiment of 15 White Lions.
He's fielding a griffon or a dragon. Most High Elf generals will tell him to drop that. It's a T3 Elf on the back of a big scary cannon-magnet, and he needs the points for magic. But what's to say that he doesn't find out a way to get around the lack of magic, and actually make this thing work, then come back and share it with us?

I'm not targeting anyone in particular here, because I know that I'm guilty of it too. But whenever we have players coming up with a "friendly" list, we usually tear it apart and make some 'Ard Boyz-ready monster out of it. And we're seriously limiting the amount of experiences that we have coming into the boards. Firstly, we all look like jerks for shredding new members, and secondly, we're all getting railed into one single train of thought.
I like watching when new books come out, people go nuts trying to come up with ideas. Usually they're insane- the "Exalted Hero Cannon" or "Terror Bomber" list from WoC, the who rush to Kitty Karts and abandonment of LSG when the HE book came out. Finally we've all got it ironed out and nobody dares try anything new without the forum jumping on them for running a different list.

Sorry for the long post, I'll stop ranting now. Understand that I'm not accusing anyone of anything (or telling Predith that his list is terrible) I'm just pointing out that a lot of the vets on here just copypaste their responses from one armylist thread to the next, and it's going to handicap us all in the long run.
 
#6 ·
Thank you for your response; they have given me a lot to think about. My apologies for putting naked points on the list; I'm trying to get used to forums in general, let alone this one. I will ensure I won't do it again ^^
I completely agree with the lack of magic; I spent the afternoon thinking about it and will try and fit in at least a level 2 mage. As for swordmasters, I'm a bit stubborn against using them by the fact they are metal models - though I do see the logic in your suggestions. I'll likely make my ears bleed while trying to re-do my list with the help of your suggestions tonight and hopefully post the new list tomorrow.

Thanks guys! :D
 
#9 · (Edited)
Then you and I are in the same boat. I used to run an all cavalry army from 4th on up to 7th. I never got the allure of Dragon Princes to be honest. You're right- he could get 15 of them for a little more than he payed for the three WLCs, but in my opinion, they're not too much better than the Karts.

Understandably, they put out a little more damage than a similarly priced regiment of Silvers. But what they lack are erosion and wounds. I meant to give that point to the Chariots- if you lose a wound on a chariot, you still have all those attacks. Lose a wound on a block of Silvers and you lose 1 attack. Lose a wound on a line of DPs, and you're out 2 attacks.
10 SHs with shields are going to run you 225-250pts
you can get 7.6 Dragon Princes for the same price (edited values to keep from posting absolute PVs)

The difference is 10A vs 14, break point of 3 rather than 2, and a rank. I can see where Dragon Princes would work well as shock cavalry, functioning in the same vein as a chariot or flanking regiment of SM to rack up a few more points in a tough fight, or to hunt down small regiments of flankers or enemy fast cav. The problem though is that Swordmasters or White Lions are getting 14 models for the same price, kicking forward 21 attacks at the same Str every round and providing a chance for 'Disruption' because they're in 2 ranks. Enemy light cav and flankers aren't worth worrying about because if they're chargers (Marauder Cav for example) we can take them out with infantry when they get too close. If they're run-and-guns like Dark Riders, they're not going to let our Cavalry catch them anyway.

All Elf cavalry is overpriced for what it does, especially in 8th. And all Elf specials are competing for the same roles in our armybook. But Silver Helms are just cheap enough that they can be ranked up and give a viable alternative to running the similar 15 Elite infantry. It's a little less hitting power, and a bit more speed.

I think that you and I play a very similar game of Warhammer, our suggestions are usually almost identical except for one or two points of contention. Not sure where you're living, but if you're ever around Harrisburg PA sometime, I'd be happy to give you a game.
 
#10 ·
I'm currently studying in Sweden (Malmö), so while I'd like to, that'd be somewhat a long way to travel.

You sort of glance over why I like them in your post - I run the majority of my army in three large, expensive blocks. Problem is, there is a whole lot of things that are too small or too insignificant for me to dedicate one of my larger blocks on killing it. I don't want to throw twenty Lions with Bsb at mopping up five chaos dogs, at chasing down that unit of shades, or running down that lone bolt thrower on the far table edge. (Also, Salamanders). They can also deal with some monsters, and considerably stall cheap hordes.
Yes, some of those units don't necessarily worry my infantry blocks. But they can still delay, annoy, or if ignored completely, deny me victory points I might need.

Now, yes - 10 Swordmasters or Lions would be superior in raw killing power - but they lack speed, and more importantly, proper armor. A unit of swordmasters, however small, requires constant attention until they manage to save themselves into close combat. Dragon Princes have shiny armor to hide behind - and most things dedicated to dealing with fast flanking/sweeping units bounce right off them. Things that *could* harm them, would likely hurt my infantry more. Therefore, they can safely operate anywhere on the board, without worrying of staying within Teclis' shouting range.

As for Dp vs Silverhelms - at the 150 points per unit I run them at, you could (assuming shields) get ~1,5 more Silverhelms. (Since I run two units, let's go with three). You're exchanging 3 wounds for the price of 7 attacks, 1 Weaponskill, 1 Initiative and 1 LD and the Dragonarmor bonus. You could get them in one unit though, making two small, effective units into one large unit whose only advantage is a rank bonus they should never ever need.

Oh also - they give me something to make my army stand out (a little) and make me feel like a somewhat skilled player while the cookie cutters do the heavy lifting :p
 
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