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Hello guys, just wanted to run this list by you as I am planning to expand my army... economy is an issue, and I would like to include the stuff I have right now (except for the Reavers, I only have them because they were in the IoB box).
My current models:
1 Mage (IoB )
14 Sword masters + Command models = 17
17 Phoenix Guard + Command models = 20
23 Lothern Sea Guard + Command models = 26
5 Ellyrian Reavers
Ok, so on to the list.
Archmage 350 pts
Lvl 4 (Lore of Life)
Talisman of preservation
Crown of command
The Archmage joins the Phoenix Guard. Should I keep the crown? It seems like a pretty good thing to have a stubborn Ld 9 in the PG unit, in case they get hit hard. The next turn I can just raise them, this makes it less likely that they will run away before I can do that.
Mage 185 pts
Lvl 2 (Lore of High Magic)
The Gem of Courage
Really seems like a golden build. Shuts down the enemy magic phase, and the Gem helps pass a crucial LD-test. I think he might as well join the Sword Masters, but the Sea Guard could keep him safe too. He could drop down to Lvl 1 and still be effective, the extra spell you get from the extra magic level is more like a bonus to what he brings to the table - shield of saphery, drain magic and the crystal. But in some games it will pay off, when you get that Vauls unmaking or Flames of the Phoenix and you can use it to great effect - especially in the earlier turns when you don't need life magic as much.
35 Lothern Seaguard 500 pts
13 Phoenix Guard 290 pts
Banner of Sorcery
Obsidian Trinket (Magic resistance 1)
Should I use more of these guys to make them effective? I could drop some Swordmasters or a Dragon Prince to buff their numbers. An idea is to give Armour of Caledor to the Champ, but gah he becomes so expensive...
16 Sword Masters 258 pts
9 Dragon Princes 310 pts
Musician, Standard bearer
Banner of Eternal Flame
First thought I'd give this banner to the Sword Masters, but then I figured that these guys are better suited to hunting down the units that need to die in a fire. Sort of fits their theme to that they have Flaming attacks! Banner of Ellyrion is a good choice as well I guess, or just run them without a flag at all.
Great Eagle xx pts
Great Eagle xx pts
I have heard so many great things about how useful the eagles are for redirection, threats and distraction and war machine hunting. Two should be a good number, no? One will just die, and more than two seems like a lot of points.
Total: 1993 pts
Last edited by Viktor; November 3rd, 2011 at 10:55. Reason: Shields on LSG, was there but forgot to tell.
Warhammer Fantasy: Warriors of Chaos, High Elves
Warhammer 40k: Eldar, Space Marines, Orks
Thank you for your comments!
I might have used Teclis, but let's assume that I cannot do that for whatever reason for the purposes of building this list.
The problem with the Book of Hoeth is that if I take it, I cannot take Silver Wand. Lore of Life is better the more spells you have from it, and unless you have 5 spells you are not guaranteed to get Throne/Flesh/Regrowth, when you take 5 you are more or less guaranteed to get all three. Did the math. But I did think of a build using the Book of Hoeth with Lore of Light since there are many high casting cost spells there. Timewarp would make everyone within 12" get Movement 10, and then you can use turn 2 to line up for some awesome charges. But Life is more reliable I think, and to use it reliably in every game I think you need the Wand.
But OK, I would love to scrap the combat gear off my Archmage. Where would I hide him if I did that? The Sea Guard? Or throw in a unit of Archers?
Enfeeble is good for the HE, but I find myself mostly struggling against shooty armies... while Miasma does help against that, shield of Saphery is better when the enemy has a lot of different units shooting and I have few units of my own. My friend plays a very shooty Dark Elf list that I struggle against. Mindrazor would be good to have though... but on a Lvl 2 it is hard to get off without blowing all your dice away! And if I take the Seerstaff (which IS a wonderful item) I cannot take the Crystal (which is even more wonderful). What I see when I look at High Magic is a spell Lore where my Lvl 2 is guaranteed to get 2 useful spells (Drain Magic and Shield) plus another potentially useful one. DM and Shield are both cheap, and useful in every turn. To be sure to get enfeeble off, I would have to throw at least 3 dice (E(3d6)+2=13 with triangular distribution) to have a good chance!
But I can see where you are coming from, there sure are alternatives to High Magic for a supporting caster.
About the Sea Guard, yes I did count the shields, edited the original list now! Warbanner is indeed just for lack of models, but it helps them get more static CR (which is the only way these suckers will ever win a combat unless you buff them with some serious magic). I would like Spearmen instead, but now I have the SG models painted and all... >__<
The magic resistance stacks with other ward saves, which gives them and the archmage a 3+ ward against spells. Useful to protect the Archmage against Death assassination spells for instance, for the price of a PG. In that light, do you think it is justified? But you think I should get rid of them completely... and while I already have the models and must use them until my collection grows larger, I do agree with you. In the games I've played them they've been a bit of a letdown. Thing is you NEED to get your buffs in with these guys if you want to win any combats, they kill so little themselves so you need high toughness from FtS not to die so many that you lose combat that way. And since the army is so small, usually they're on their own! When the time comes, I will probably change them out for White Lions as you suggest!
I do run the SM 7 wide, it is indeed optimal, same for my PG actually (perhaps more controversial)! It's just that I have no shame when it comes to placing a few extra models in the back rank just for a few more ablative wounds... others may call it ugly, but I say don't limit yourself. You are right about command, I will drop the Blademaster but the musician stays. Musicians are SO good in 8th because of swift reform, it makes units a lot more manouverable.
About the Princes, I never thought of adding a character there, is that what you usually want to do with them? It does provide a good added power to them, but... yech, for those 150 points that noble would cost me I could add 5 more Princes! Yeah cavalry is not what it was. I might proxy these guys before I buy them, but they look really good. Maybe I should just run them as 5 with a musician (awesome on cav), that was my original plan actually, and a good build. Then when my friend got his second Hydra... and I thought man, these guys can hunt that sh*t down with their flaming banner and 2+ ward against breath weapons! They do cost a lot for that however, and against a horde infantry army their use is more limited. Against a shooty army their purpose is to get in their face as soon as possible along with the eagles, giving my infantry some respite and a chance to close in without getting too much shot at.
Hmm I guess I will just proxy the eagles and see if I can manage to use them to good effect. Not entirely sold on them myself either. How do you feel about bolt throwers?
Warhammer Fantasy: Warriors of Chaos, High Elves
Warhammer 40k: Eldar, Space Marines, Orks
Castiell and I don't see eye to eye on a lot of things in the High Elf army but I do agree with a few of his points.
I like you mage(s) I can see what you are trying to do with them and I think that it should work. Flames of the phoenix has become an awesome spell (massive cheap units) for a comparably cheap casting cost esp since you can keep RIP spells up without any impact on further casting. Does Drain Magic still affect casting costs for dispelling so make Throne harder to dispel? if so that is also a bonus, worth chucking a single dice at every phase.
I also agree about the book, it works well with one or 2 high casting cost spells, not as good with multiple lower casting cost spells, which is how life is supposed to work.
I would definitely go with 5 (or 6) DP + Musician, 9 is just ablative wounds for very little gain.
Personally I adore Eagles, but they aren't as good in the new edition as they were. They remain our cheapest unit for harrassing enemy warmachines, march blocking (tests anyway) and the only unit we have that we can throw away trying to bait and redirect big nasties. All units like this took a hit in the new rules (reform after combat), but it still has a place.
Position a Spearmen unit in charge range of enemy big nasty unit, position flankers in a position to charge big nasty unit, put eagle 1" away from big nasty unit so it cannot be avoided. Eagle is charged, Overrun into spears, flank charge by flankers or reform to face either spears or flankers exposing flank to either spears or flankers for double charge next turn, (easy in theory hard in practice)
Counter this with an eagle, by charging the rear unit with an eagle so your big nasty unit can overrun then participate in the eagles combat.
Eagles can also be used to charge with foot troops to gain their swift stride pursuit roll, without risking the infantry pursuing into a bad place. After all wiping stuff out is all that matters, who cares if they break if you can't pursue without risking your combat blocks.
I must admit the small PG unit seems wasteful, however dropping 4 DP you can buy 8 PG now they do serve a role as a second anvil for the 2 hammers you already have (SM and DP).
Last edited by sirkently; November 7th, 2011 at 12:04.
Wow, for the first time, everything that I really want to say in a post, has already been said. I know we've posted a lot together in the WoC forums Viktor, but I'll always be a High Elf at heart, have been for the entire time I played Fantasy, they were my first army. I still keep them active enough to keep the dust off 'em, and I've stayed pretty sharp on how to make the army work. Allonaire and Castiell are both great guys to have giving you HE advice, probably two of the most overlooked veterans on the forum (unless you guys are out doing 40k work on the side, haha).
Allonaire has some great points, he's a bit old fashioned though (no offense) when it comes to keeping units in the book. I really dislike Eagles, just like I hate Dogs in the Warriors book. Compare the two, and you'll see why I dislike Eagles even more. Neither army has many points to be tossing about on "redirection", and although Elves look fragile and incompetent on paper, you'll soon realize that even at S3, ASF I5 is not something to be messed with. However, I agree with him on the choice of Mages, the PG, and the Dragon Princes.
Castiel on the other hand, is almost a man (I think he's a man) after my own heart when it comes to HE. I disagree with some things he's said (never, ever, ever take a HE combat character- even in jest. Not because they're overpriced for being too good like a Warrior, but because they're overpriced for being cursed with Elven T3 ).
Teclis is really something you should consider. He's not anywhere near as cheesy as most people claim he is. We've had this discussion over in the WoC forums - at the end of the day, he's a T2 defenseless Elf, and the only reason we run him is so we can IF Regrowth and a few other Life spells without worrying about it. The Book is good, it's a decent substitute for Teccy, but it's not quite as great as I'd like it to be. Personally, I'd like to grab a L4 with the Seerstaff and rock out Life magic. Throne, Flesh to Stone, Dwellers, and Regrowth are the 4 best for Elves.
Shadow magic works wonders for HE, in the same way that it forms a great equalizer for Warriors. We can knock foes Ini down to ensure we get our rerolls, we can drop their Toughness to make S3 something to worry about, drop their Strength to make T3 a bit more viable, or go all out and have ASF WS5 S8 attacks from Okkam's. The best part though is the ability to swap in and out of units. A favorite trick of mine is to run Folariath's Robes on a L2 Shadow caster and use the Lore Attribute to swap him with Teclis when Teccy gets charged. Suddenly Teclis is whisked to safety and replaced with a nigh-untouchable Mage. If you try to challenge him, he hops to the back, and if you leave him up front, you can't hurt him with 99% of the models in the game.
I know that you're trying to skim on the price of your army, but I'd consider ditching the LSG and PG, plus the War Banner. LSG are great, but their bows are sort of an after-thought unless you're really going for the S&S (but lets face it, you want to be guaranteed to get into combat asap, so you'd probably rather charge). Your PG block is alright, they do make good wizard bunkers, but that's spending a lot on a block of guys who are spending all game p*ssyfooting around combat in order to keep that caster safe. If your Wizard is going to see combat, he's going to see combat, and those PGs aren't a large enough regiment to make a dent. If you dropped those LSG to Spearmen, dropped the Warbanner from the unit, and dropped the PG regiment, you could actually pick up another anvil of 35 Spearmen in your list and have ~10pts to spare. That's more boots on the ground, and that's something that the HE really need. Even with a 4+ wardsave, the PGs aren't going to be a durable as 35 basic Elves.
Alright - now onto the next thing which bothered me about your list: the Dragon-Prince, Swordmaster conundrum.
Firstly, Swordmasters should never be in combat alone, unless it's against a small unit. Attrition is the only thing that kills these guys, because T3 with a 5+ isn't saving anyone from StepUp. They're best used on the flank of those Spearmen, so you don't need a banner (because the Spears already have one) and you hardly need a Musician (because the Spears have one for breaking ties and hopefully you won't ever run). You're doing well by keeping your SMs small, usually 12-14 is the trick, although if you've got the points, springing for a 3rd rank can help.
Secondly, you've got a weird DP regiment there. Elves are a lot like Warriors, we don't have much viable shooting, and the best defense against shooting is to get in and mix it up. Small units actually don't phase us, ASF means that unless they have enough guys to weather our initial burst of attacks, they aren't going to make a dent - besides, the Swordmasters can actually intercept most fast flankers (phalanx up, it's the 8th edition way). So what are your DPs doing that Silver Helms can't do better? Not much. So maybe run cavalry, and if you do, run Silver Helms. The alternative is to run 2 Tirrannoc Chariots on your flanks, filling a similar role to your Cav - intercepting small flanking units, and running down fleeing foes. Tirannocs aren't quite as stat-effective as Silvers or DPs, but they're a steal at less than 100pts each.
That being said, you've got a single block of Swordmasters, some spare points hanging around from whichever method you choose to solve your DP problem, and you have 2 anvil units (because you're either fielding a bigger block of PGs, or another block of Spears). You want the Swordmasters on the flanks of these units, because that is how you win combats. So pick up another block of SMs. You can get plenty by just blatantly dropping your Dragon Princes, or you can drop 4 DPs, the command from your SM, bump the unit down to 12, and field another symmetrical block of 12 SMs. Small, but effective enough.
Really, High Elves aren't much of a stretch from Warriors (yeah yeah, throw your stones and boo me). Both of them are small footprint, high-cost, elite armies. Neither of them should pay much attention to the shooting phase, and both of them should spend their few character points on supportive casters. Both armies should attempt to get into combat by the most direct route possible. The difference between an Elf and a Warrior though, is the statline. Elves have ASF, but less S/T, and way thinner armor, but are a just a few points cheaper because of it. They're good in quick combats, and your magic is going to be busy shoring up the defenses if you get too stuck in. Rather than Warriors, who can go against just about anything in front of them unsupported, Elves have to play a dodgy game of tag-team tactics to engage an enemy with overwhelming force and break them quickly, moving on before your opponent can react and bring his entire army down on your tiny force. Resource management is the name of the game, and while sometimes you'll just have to throw a unit away or leave them to die, every wound lost is felt more keenly than in a Warriors army. Believe me. It makes for a very strategic game, and that is what separates them from Warriors.
Back in my day Sarathai we would not have tolerated cheek like that.
Apart from always taking a musician for my units (swift reform ftw) I agree with alot of what has been said.
I don't care what you say Teclis is Cheesy, or other mages are useless. Point for point you cannot get a mage that is better value, his wargear plus abilities allow him to carry 250 points of equipment (not counting the sword). His additional leadership is golden and his sword is epic albeit for 1 attack. Considering he is probably a life mage and therefore casting at least 1 spell a turn you can assume that he is healing wounds if you don't kill him in a single turn, and better be toughness 4 or better in the rounds of close combat if he does get in trouble. He has flaws but he is up there with the worst named characters you can field.
He has his drawbacks, not least that a 2000 point army wins or loses based on how well Teclis performs/is managed/killed. His biggest handicap is his name and that people will hunt him more than they would hunt a normal mage, this itself can be a benefit the whole red rag to a bull type philosophy. He also has to deal with the magic phase which is undeniably fickle under the new edition.
You cannot tell me that if I turned up with a mage (not Teclis) carrying Book of Hoeth, Destroy spell Scroll, Banner of Sorcery, Blade of Hoeth (auto wound one), Staff of stability, Seer Staff for say 425 points you wouldn't politely ask me to rewrite my list for the umpteen rules I just broke. Most of these are powered down versions of what Teclis uses.
I have no objection to named characters but in general they are named because they are able to break the rules that constrain normal Lords and Heroes. In my opinion Teclis pushes this to the very limit of what's acceptable. He is not that difficult to keep alive (35 spears 7x5 + BS should do it against most hunters. Challenging with Teclis may be an option sometimes (against unit Champions with 1 wound), Flesh to Stone + Regen works alright vs core, even better with throne of Vines. Whatever kills Teclis will probably have killed a regular L4 mage anyway, so was probably worth it anyway.
Sorry to hijack your thread like that Viktor, play without Teclis as long as you can. When you facce an opponent that you just can't seem to beat try Teclis and see if it makes a difference.
A bsb can still be valuable, but aside from that (which you probably didn't mean), I wasn't suggesting using a fighty character - the first time was sarcasm, the second time to point out what I see a lot. The reason I bring that up again, is because of the teclis discussion - and the one mayor difference between HE and WoC imho - the WoC are a strong army, but internally, they're exceptionally well balanced. The HE army-book is, in both senses of the world, broken. That's not to say they're weak, or that they're not competitive, but the book simply lacks all resemblance of internal balance. Two thirds are either bloody useless (fighty heroes, shooty units, chariots, monsters) or have niche uses at best (Silverhelms/DP). It's the remaining units, that are strong enough to carry the army into a relatively comfortable spot in the upper end of the midfield. But it essentially leaves us without much choice, provided we, like Victor here, aim to be competitive.
For Lord choices - there's Teclis (who is 475 not 425 pts btw), there's a bookmage and maybe, just maybe a Seerstaff mage - and then literally nothing else. For elite choices, there's Swordmasters, Lions and maybe PG, everything else is already situational. Come core choices, and we're well within "pick your poison" territory. Come rare choices, and the poisons to pick from are now lethal.
Essentially, what I'm saying is - for a High elf, there's very little middle ground between bringing the worst (which without question can stand up against the scariest things out there), and marginalizing your own army, by straying from the few viable choices there are.
Also, that's valuable info for a new HE player, so it's totally on topic
Last edited by Castiell; November 4th, 2011 at 22:11. Reason: Nothing to see here, move along.
The Silver Knights of Tor Adrac (He): 26/2/4
The Spears of Slaanesh (Woc): 7/2/5
Battlegroup Chalybso (GK): 7/3/3
Wow, a lot of replies!
My main thing against Teclis is that somehow I want to prove that I can play High Elves without resorting to using him. While it is true he is the most competitive option, at a personal level I hestitate because of that. I think I can make a strong army without him, and I want to give it a shot. While it may not make sense to some, that's where I'm standing right now. So I guess it's kind of like you say Allonairre, might as well go at it without him at first.
I feel too that lore of shadow should do really well as it provides both good defense and good offense, but with hexes it kind of depends on how the enemy army is set up. My friends Dark Elves that I struggle against are usually composed of very many elements that can shoot, and hexing one of them is usually not going to help as much as buffing one of my own units will, in comparison. But Mindrazor is so good for the LSG and PG..!
I will take all your advice to heart, dwell on it and proxy some games when I can. Something I do know right now that I want to do is to get more Swordmasters, one unit doesn't cut it as you say. If they die, I am all out of hammers - and in a 2k list that is kind of awful.
Captain, do you mean I could as well run Silver Helms since they are more wounds/point and they are not going to do any damage anyway when I ram them into something? I can see that argument, but it feels really unintuitive as the DP have SO much better stats that SH. It feels like at least they can accomplish something against certain units, whereas Silver Helms are not going to do any damage at all. There are more things out there than phalanxes, but I will dwell on that as well. But I gotta say, 5 DP+muso is the thing besides more SMs that I am most sure of getting.
I will also buff up the Phoenix Guard with some of the points left from the removed DPs... and I will try out having the mage run with or alongside the LSG for some games so the PG can enjoy more freedom on the field. All depends on my opponent. At a later date I might replace them with something else, perhaps White Lions or something.
I will finish my 35 LSG models, then when I have the rest of the 2k army I will probably start working towards replacing them with spearmen. A lot of models to buy and paint, but sooner or later I will have them all... like 70 of them or whatever I need!
I think the Eagles really depend on play style, I will try them out to see if they fit mine. The value you get out of them is very indirect, so I see why a lot of people might shy away from them (as with War Hounds in the WoC army).
Last edited by sirkently; November 6th, 2011 at 16:51.
Warhammer Fantasy: Warriors of Chaos, High Elves
Warhammer 40k: Eldar, Space Marines, Orks
You seem to have a good plan of action for getting started. I do value what Allonaire said about using Teclis, and what you've said about wanting to prove that you can play HE without him. I do the same, I usually leave him at home (and I have the official model, last one for sale at the local GW - manager said not to even open it). Anyways, I keep him at home because it's always frustrating to hear "you wouldn't have beaten me without Teclis" and then have to waste 2 hours of my life kicking their butt again without him in my list. So I just start on round 2 these days, and turn the tables when they say "I wasn't running my best list" - yes, and I didn't run Teclis.
What I was commenting on with the Dragon Princes is that they are redundant and overpriced for that redundancy. You can get 2 Swordmasters for every 1 Dragon Prince, and they fill the same role - flanking your larger blocks. Sending DPs in unsupported is terrible. Think of all the times that your Chaos Knights have gotten "stuck in" against an opponent. Now imagine if those Chaos Knights were S3, T3, and only had a 2+ save. Dragon Princes are great for charging small units of skirmishers, small fast-cavalry units, getting in and wrecking the backfield (if they get to the back field alive), but none of those units cost nearly as much as the DPs. I prefer to run Silver Helms or chariots since they're a bit cheaper, and the only real difference that I feel on the table is the 1 less attack and no shield (I don't give mine shields, at least).
High Elves fight very similarly to Empire, except that I wish our 'detachments' actually benefited from the Empire Detachment rules. I build my list in battalions, with a few supporting elements here and there. For example, a usual battalion for me is a block of Spears, and a block of Swordmasters. That's the guts of every list. If I can't get enough to fill my core requirements from one block of spears, I add an entire additional battalion. Then I add in my support caster, who needs to be able to bolster both battalions. If he's locked into one of the Spear units, chances are good that he can't see or won't have range to the other. So I either give him a bunker of PG so that he can remain central to the battle, or I add a Shadow caster to the other battalion so that I can more easily swap between the two formations. Finally I think about the sorts of things that I'm going to need for my guys to stay effective on the field. I need to protect my flanks, preferably without relegating that job to my Swordmaster detachments.... sounds like a job for Chariots. Each formation gets a chariot, for each exposed flank. Usually my formations stay together, with the Spears on the inside of my lines, protecting each others' flanks. But if I plan on splitting them, they either need an additional chariot for both battalions, or I can run a single regiment of faster moving Cavalry, in hopes that they can identify and intercept a threat to either side and block the gap.
That's the kind of forethought that I put into writing my Elf lists. The Warriors are awesome - I've seen my Warriors go outright Spartan on my foes, and have single isolated regiments taking on enemies from 2 or more sides and still carry the day, because they're just that freakin' amazing. Elves are like that, but not quite. You actually play a more aggressive game with them, because you're trying to get the drop on the enemy, cut him off, and kill him. My Warriors usually work from the center outwards, because that's where all the expensive units are - right there in the middle of the enemy army. My High Elves usually work from the flanks inward, because the last thing I want to do is run out of bodies or momentum in the middle of a sea of bad-guys.