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Lords and Heroes -
Prince on a Sun Dragon with Star Lance, Armour of Caledor and Guardian Phoenix - 470
Level 4 Archmage with Silver Wand - 270
Noble with Great Weapon, Dragon Armour, Ring of Fury - 139
Level 2 Mage with Annulian Crystal - 175
36 Spearelves with Full Command - 354
32 Spearelves with with Full Command - 318
9 Archers (Mage here) - 99
21 White Lions with Full Command - 345
22 Phoenix Guard with Full Command (Archmage and Noble here) - 360
12 Silverhelms with Full Command, Shields - 321
10 Swordsmasters of Hoeth - 150
So I know that I'm one point over. Right now I have the battalion set, and a box of Phoenix Guard and White Lions. Is this an acceptable/ideal list to build towards? I was thinking about taking life on my archmage, and either fire, high, or heavens on my mage. Are those good lores, or did I miss any? The basic tactics are to advance with the infantry units, have the Silverhelms go up one flank, use the Phonix Guard as a bunker and an anvil, with the noble giving some damage at range and in close combat. The White Lions were going to be a flanker and a hammer unit, with the Swordsmasters acting as a supporting charger to add a little extra punch. Is this a good list? Is there any way I could make it better?
There are a couple of contentious points in this list
Sun Dragons- extremely soft for a dragon T6 sure but only 5+armour and no ward. Add to that Dragons not being quite the force they once were makes them seem overpriced for what you get. If you want to use a dragon though then go for it and learn to use it well, I never have really.
I would probably take a BSB for the combat noble.
For Core the archers have to be 10 and I think most would suggest going with a horde of 50 spears with supporting archers or maybe a smaller spear block. Although I like 2 more even units 36 and 32 seem odd numbers to me Why not 30 and 30 with 2 units of Archers?
Special is alright but not many seem to include cavalry anymore, they aren't as effective as they used to be when compared with our other special. Entirely up to you though try it see if you can make it work. 10 SM seems small and 22PG strange, I would split them at 12 and 20 or 14 and 18 (20 incl the 2 characters).
You have alot of magic so I suggest including the banner of sorcery in there with a unit of elites.
Otherwise good luck and have fun.
I know that sun dragons aren't great for, well, a dragon, but it is 30 points more than a griffon and a lot better, which made it seem underpriced. Also, with 5 wounds and a life mage close to the battle (in the pg) I thought I could give him back some wounds.
I was also under the impression that guardian phoenix buffs both the rider and mount. So I guess it doesn't? I have the pg at 22 because with 2 characters I can go 6*4 or 8*3. Also, I know the spearelves seem weird-sized, but they would be going 9*4 and 8*4 to maximise attacks. It seems like a waste of points to have models that can't attack.
I could just drop the sm and give the banner of sorcery to the pg, as they should last longer, and get a bolt thrower. I have heard a lot of griping about those though. Are they bad (just 2 wounds?).
I have the silverhelms because I love the models and they should outrank anything they flank charge, win combat if they tandem charge (hopefully) and (really hopefully) break the enemy. Should I give them the lion standard to help them do that, the banner of ellyrion to get there quickly, or take none?
Dragons used to be able to break ranks which made them able to fight units, however this is no longer the case, Guardian Phoenix is only for the rider unfortuantely, only Eltharion has a ward that buffs his mount as well, you are right about Griffons v Dragons but imo griffons are grossly overpriced and should be available to a noble and dragons are slightly overpriced now.
If you are going to go that wide with your spears then I would definitely up them to 50, they will get to attack from 5 ranks when they are 10 wide. Its not that often that you get to use all of your attacks in very wide units. My personal feeling is that you want to be narrow and deep, maximising ranks so you can break steadfast while minimising enemy attacks at you or a horde, maximising attacks.
Fair enough with the Silverhelms, be aware that charging infantry in the flank is fantastic but you still have to have more ranks than them to break steadfast (you remove their ranks for combat res calculations but it still affects steadfast). So if you do get that perfect charge if the infantry has more than 3 ranks they will probably be steadfast still, however if you put a unit of narrow deep spears in the front you will probably break them in the first turn. You can also engage from the flank or rear with another smaller unit and thus prevent them being able to reform to face your Silverhelms, this is nice but they won't win many combats after the charge 19 S3 attacks are not up to killing much.
Most people would counsel against dropping the SM they are walking mincers and even as smaller units give your army some real teeth, they do attract a great deal of enemy attention though which is not always ideal.
I would get 2 eagles instead of a bolt thrower but that is how I play, a single bolt thrower wouldn't really add much to this list though your shooting is really an after thought. I was fairly sure that the 2 wounds thing was FAQ'd but I am not certain, they change those sometimes.
While dragons may be overpriced and a sun dragon may be squishy, I will be able to remove wounds (via life) and cause terror. While They may be overpriced, gw has a great model for them and I already fit in my lvl 4 (and I'm not a power player - winning is always fun but so is having a great looking model that's fun). I will think abou taking my spears in a horde.
If I gave my sh the lion banner, and they caused fear and terror, wouldn't they be able to break something (out of the bsb range)?
While I know sm are close combat machines - 2 s5 ws6 attacks is a lot, supporting rank sonly get 1 attack and they have a low armour save. Every shot will be going at them and while that might keep the fire off of my other units, I don't think its worth it. Plus gw still has really expensive metal models for them, so...
If I dropped the sm, I could beef up my silverhelms to dragon princes - is that worth it?
While I know sun dragons/all dragons aren't great, I should be able to keep him alive thanks to my life archmage. Also, while he might not be super-good, I was able to fit him and an archmage into my list, so...
I was thinking about going horde with spears, but whether I do or not, I would rather be getting all of my attacks, rather than just forming up to break ranks.
I know silverhelms are useless after the charge, but hopefully with a dual/supported charge and the fact that they will cause fear and terror should occasionally break the enemy.
I know sm are combat monsters but with t3 and a 5+ save, plus the opponent's knowledge of their skill, they won't make it past turn 2. I don't want to cast spells and shield a unit that will get wacked the first turn of cc anyway.
I could drop the sm for some reavers, or drop them and replace the sh with dragon princes. Does that seem ok?
I understand what you are saying about the spears and wanting all your attacks. Elves don't do a protracted combat well with any unit, I think that we have to have a unit or 2 that can reliably break steadfast against any opposing enemy unit. We either do this through shooting/magicing the units that would have steadfast or by having a very deep unit (up to 6 ranks). My spearmen are not there to kill stuff as such but to make sure that the stuff my other units kill are broken. Imagine a frontal charge of the remaining SM with a unit of 30 Spears that are 6x5. The SM can get the kills lets say 4 kills (depending on the enemy) if they do get wiped out its even if not bonus, any kills you get from the spears are a bonus, you will win combat unless your opponent carves the spears up. Then without steadfast you can break them and run them down with the SM or Spears or both as appropriate. The number of times I have had stupid steadfast keep enemies in combats against SM and WL when I have won by ridiculous margins has been infuriating.
You could try reavers, I think that with a unit of 12 I would stick with Silverhelms.
How are the Silverhelms causing fear by the way? They cannot take a magic banner anymore as they are no longer a core unit.
The helms will not win combats alone but they may force a unit to reform to face them for turn 2 of the combat which will put a flank to your main line which you can then exploit with squishier WL or SM provided your Silver helms don't break in the second round which they shouldn't, perhaps put the noble on a horse with a great weapon and re-rollable 2+ Armour save for the 3 S6 attacks in round 2. He could still take the Ring of Fury although I don't think this adds much to the army, as it stands you will burn through all your magic dice very fast.
Depending on who you play it may be worth including Eagles or Reavers to get to the backline for any warmachines that may take down your dragon that is up to you though and I am not sure what I would drop to fit them in.
Check what the range on lifeblood (the Life affect) is if you intend to keep the dragon alive with it.
Whatever you go with I hope it works for you, what sort of 2k army do you play with as that tends to influence the 3k army that you will be able to make work for you.
Yeah I just saw that in the armybook. Everyone but them can take a magic banner... And the lions banner makes you immune to terror and fear, not to be able to cause them
Lifeblood is 12" last time I checked.
What opponent would sm be getting just 4 kills against? Not even chaos warriors are that tough - even with MoT.
Ring of Fury doesn't take pd does it? Also, I thought that great weapon bonuses were only +1 when you were mounted.
I am still thinking about going with dragon princes. I have some points left over and they can take a decent banner to make themselves that much better,
The SM was a worst case scenario type thing, and assuming you had lost some due to enemy shooting/magic with a single rank left.
Bound items now use power dice just like all spells and you have to roll over the bound items level, no miscsats or irresistable force possible in 8th ed doesn't affect future casting (low bound level is now better)
Great Weapons have gone back to being +2 regardless in 8th I think because I think that my WL chariot has 2 S6 attacks, but now you have me second guessing myself. Definitely +1 in 7th ed think it changed in 8th but check.
10 DP with command is 350 + magic banner is a massive point sink and only really as effective as your 12 silverhelms (DP have 16 attacks + mounts at WS5 while Helms would have 13 + mounts at WS4), ie still probably needs support from a second unit. Might be worth a shot though, and DP have I6 so get rerolls against every infantry unit in the game (incl all Dark Elves) and most characters. Really comes down to your preference, I think that helms would be better as they would be disregarded as a threat which is ideal for the role you want them to fill, DP will attract more respect from the enemy and more attention as a result.