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It's been a while cinse i posted something in this part of the forum but now I have made a list I want you to critisise as much as you can.
lv 4 archmage, obsidian loadstone, potion of toughness, silver wand, lore of death, general, goes in the swordmasters
noble, bsb, lance, dragon armour, eagle, helm of fortune, guardian phoenix
noble, eagle, great weapon, armour of destiny
40 lothern sea guard, shields, command, banner of dicipline
17 sword masters, command, standard of balance, amulet of light
20 white lions, command, banner of sorcery, skeinsliver
thats the 2200 pts. Let me please know what all of you in this forum think.
First, I'd say that adding about 50pts to your list would give you a more commonly played army-size of 2250. But I'll assume for this that you're staying at 2200pts. You said criticize, so I'll start at the top:
L4 Archmage -
Why Lore of Death over Lore of Life? We can deal enough damage to people, and Death is a strange lore, it's best spell relies on the opponent having low initiative, and the rest are all character-snipers. Life lets us bring back models, and Shadows would let you nerf enemy Strength and Toughness down to manageable levels, while the sig-spell almost guarantees that you'll never see anything that doesn't give you rerolls for being faster.
Why the Potion of Toughness, and why into the Swordmasters? You're putting a squishy character into that regiment, and taking away from 2 S5 attacks in doing so. MR3 is great, no doubt, but you could go with a noble or the like and take a bit less MR and still get away alright I think.
Why is he on an Eagle? Your army is infantry-based, shouldn't he stay near the ranked blocks of troops who might flee if they take too many wounds? Plus, Elves on Eagles aren't much better than Elves-jumping-around-naked-infront-of-bowmen, to be honest. I understand wanting the Eagle's W and T value rather than the Noble's, but at the same time, putting him out there makes him a unit of his own - he'll be targeted by spells that cause D6 S6 hits and the like, even worse if they're Lore of Heavens, as they do more damage to flyers.
See the BSB, but also - why are you spending points on a flying noble? Once again, using the Eagle's T/W value, but it's not helping you that much because you're all alone. What role does this guy fill, and is it worth the points that you've spent on him? You could pick up 10 more elite infantry for that price, or 5 Dragon Princes, or more infantry in general.
40 LSG -
Generally speaking, Spearmen are better. The LSG aren't bad, but Elves are a fast army, we're going to be marching most of the time, and if you can convince an enemy to charge you and give you that 20-round S&S reaction, you should go into politics. You could save a couple points a model here (just over 150pts on the whole unit) and bump these guys down to Spearmen. Those points, combined with the Noble on the Eagle, get you some more boots on the ground, which is always a good thing. Also, if a unit is not escorting a character, it doesn't need a champion - yes, they give you the opportunity to save models from combat, but you still take the damage in Overkill modifiers, so you're still there next round... with no champion... eating wounds.
I see that you're going for ranks of 6. Try for 7? You can typically get 8 guys into combat with most enemies, but 7 is a nice number because it means that you won't lose attacks against an enemy who is only 5 20mm bases wide. Max this unit out for their front-line hits, they do a lot of damage.
White Lions -
Role? You have LSG/Spears tarpitting for your Swordmasters, so what are the Lions doing? If you're looking for another anvil, you're better off with more Spears. You could get ~30 for the price of this unit. I'm not sure why these are in the list right now, or what they're doing, so I can't comment. It does make sense to have someone toting the Banner of Sorcery though.
3 Eagles -
All together you're looking at 5 Eagles, +2 Nobles, so I assume that you're trying to run them as a "unit" in a way. Unfortunately, it won't work out - no Eagles alone will ever negate steadfast, so you're going to lose your Lance bonus, and you're going to be stuck in eating attacks each round. Likewise, you won't negate ranks if you charge an Eagle into the flank of an enemy unit. Granted, I don't really advocate RBTs because they're a tad expensive as it stands, but 3 Eagles might be a bit of overkill. What are you planning to do with them? I'd say that suicide/redirection is out because they seem to be your Nobles' wingmen. What's the purpose of the unit? And why not just play Brets and use Pegasus Knights?
I'm not trying to cut your list down and stomp it into the mud - it's solid, you picked decent units and wargear, but it could be a lot stronger. You need to think about what types of units you're putting into your list, and walk yourself through a rudimentary 6-turn battle. Personally, my Warriors or Elf list would eat this army alive. Either of them can bounce your Eagles or kill them off in a hurry, and then all I'm left fighting are a couple of medium-sized infantry units. Numbers-based armies like Skaven will swamp you, and you may as well just keep your Eagles off the table because they won't do you any good. Warhammer is fast becoming a numbers game (I hate it too, don't worry) so you have to play by their rules. Bigger units, and more of them. You want lots of models/boots on the ground, to soak up damage and keep your flanks covered.
Hi again and thank you so much for your response!
Firts of all: the reason why Im playing a different type of points value is because Im planning to compeete in a tornament that uses this ponts value.
And second of all. Please post your list in this thread that will "eat my army alive".
And then. Why do i have to run the swordmasters in a rank of 6. And why not have the archmage in there. The potion is for a round of hard protection.
I cant see why the white lions are so bad and the eagle characters are for double charging or even flank and rearcharging toghether with my blocks. The eagles are for cheap redirecting that in my opinion is one of the most important things in the warhammer world right now. They can redirect big blocks that you are talking about. And what do you do against manglersquigs and fanatics with a list without any lothern or eagles? Archers? They shoot to softly to kill manglers if you dont wanna have them in absurd numbers and are not very good for triggering fanatics.
And how in the world is spearmen better then lothern sea guard?
Thanks again for your response!
Btw. I know Im not supposed to be defensive about your response but I just couldnt agree about your thoughts.
Last edited by jacopat; March 26th, 2012 at 16:32.
Ive considered your thoughts. Here is the new list.
Archmage, lv4, Preservation, scroll
Noble, eagle, bsb, lance, shield, dragon armour, helm of fortune, guardian phoenix
Noble, eagle, gtw, shield, armour of destiny
30 lothern, command,
12 archers, musician
22 white lions, command, banner of sorcery, skeinsliver
2 lion chariots
Last edited by jacopat; March 26th, 2012 at 21:15.
I think that your original list was better.
I am not sure what you are trying to gain with Skeinsliver, you currently have 9 drops so probably won't get a +1 that way, it seems a waste of ** points really without both +1s.
I think 40 Seagaurd are better than 30 Seaguard and 11 Archers.
Why are Spears better than Seaguard you asked, at 4 points extra per seaguard for the 24" bow shot, thats 160 points in your unit for 28 S3 bows assuming you don't move, that hit on 4's and wound on 4's and get saved on 6's against the weakest enemy, so that is 6 wounds, less if they actually have armour. 24" means only 2 rounds of shooting, possibly less. This may cause an issue for flanking units or other small units but not for any credible threat. 160 points is much better spent on 17 spears, an additional 10 attacks in combat and more ablative wounds for the unit.
Personally I like seaguard but don't think that they are our optimum core choice. At 2200 points I would go with a horde of Spears (50) Full command, Banner of Discipline, 10 Archers to make up the points.
Your initial army was so unique it is really difficult to imagine exactly how it will play. I understand the desire to redirect etc but it is nowhere near as effective as it once was, I still include at least 2 redirecters in all my armies however but it is insanely difficult to make them effective with all the reforming rules and changes to psychology and marchblocking. With the ineffectiveness of a flank charges these days you can quite literally ignore the eagles and their 2 attacks won't tip the scales in a fight.
The flying nobles are interesting, I am starting to consider them as a counter charging option, managing the backline and throwing them into the fight where they are needed to tip the scales. I would equip them with Great Weapons though for the second round of combat, just in case.
I am sort of imagining your 3 blocks moving up one flank with an eagle in front to help control the chargers, then wheeling your whole line to face the centre with the mounted eagles holding deep in the centre to either charge the flank of what is engaged or keep any smaller fast moving units respectful, while the other 2 eagles try and tie up the opposite flanks, slowing them down or redirecting so that your blocks can deal with the enemy piecemeal.
I am not certain that you have the units to deal with enemy hordes and the like which is where I would want both the horde of spears and the Swordmasters. In my battle plan I would have the WL extreme flank as there is a good chance they will have to hold a combat for a long time alone, Spears in the middle and SM as the most central unit of the 3 combat units. If I were using Seaguard I would switch the SM and spears as that would enable them to shoot more as they wouldnt be moving as far.
Good luck with whatever you go with, I hope it works.
Lions aren't terrible. Personally, I'd take Swordmasters any day, even against armies with shooting (a 4+ doesn't hold up well against shooting once mods are tacked on - I play Warriors of Chaos, believe me). The extra attack coming off of swordmasters actually makes up for the +1S that the White Lions get. The only good thing about Lions then is that they're Stubborn, but even that has been mitigated now because of Steadfast. Let's take a bit of a study then:
Your Lions are just over 300pts (I won't count their banner, because that doesn't help in combat). Let's put them against 2 different 300pt blocks, and compare them to ~300pt units of HE Spearmen, or the exact same regiment of Swordmasters:
WLs vs. 60 Empire Halberdiers - Lions hit 8.89, wound/kill 7.4 models. Halberds hit 10.5, wound 7, kill 5.8. The Halberds win combat by .4pts.
35 HE Spears (7x5) vs. 60 Emp Halbs - Spears hit 24.89, wound 12.45, kill 10.38 models. Halberds hit 10.5, wound 7, kill 5.8. The Halberds lose combat by 3.5pts
21 HE Swordmasters (7x3) vs. 60 Emp Halbs - SM hit 18.6, wound/kill 15.56. Halbs hit 13.5, wound 9, kill 7.5. The Halberds lose by 6.06.
Now, against something a bit more elite, the "heavy armor" that everyone says White Lions do better against:
20 White Lions vs. 18 Khorne Warriors w/ Halberds - Lions hit 7.5, wound/kill 6.25. Warriors hit 12, wound/kill 10. Warriors win by 3.75.
35 HE Spears (5x7) vs. 18 Khorne Halbs - Spears hit 15, wound 5, kill 2.5. Warriors hit 12, wound/kill 10, Warriors win by 4.5, Elves are still Steadfast
21 Swordmasters (7x3) vs. 18 Khorne Halbs - SMs hit 18.6, wound 12.4, kill 10.33. Warriors hit 10, wound/kill 8.33. Warriors lose by 3, are not Steadfast
In each case, the Lions were the only unit to consistently lose the combat. The reason is that 2A is better than 1A +1S. The only time that Lions do better is against targets with T4 and a 3+ or better save, or targets with T7. Anything else, Swordmasters will carry the day, as a Damage regiment. As a unit that is going to stand firm and not flee, you would be better with Spears, or Phoenix Guard.
I was imagining that you had the Swordmasters set to be 6-wide because there are 18 of them in the unit. Running them at 5-wide is still 3 ranks, you just have a 2w cushion before you lose that first rank bonus (but after that, you lose each subsequent rank after 1w). It's just not optimal. And your Swordmasters are your close-combat unit of choice, why would you put the Archmage in there? He removes 2S5 attacks, and most of the units that you want to put SMs up against are going to target him and kill him. If you do put him in the unit, ditch your Champion. If the enemy challenges you, you answer with the champion, he targets your AMage with tons of attacks. If you refuse, he sends the Champ to the back (now you're down an extra attack) and still targets your AMage with his models. I just realized that your AMage doesn't have a ward. T6 won't help you as much as you think, and it's only for 1 round of combat. I'd put him in the Seaguard or the Lions, personally.
Eagle Nobles for combined charges... You're spending 243pts on the Eagle mount for your BSB and the second Noble (you still need a BSB, so I didn't count his points). All told, you have two separate models with T4 and 6 wounds between them, one with a 4+ wardsave, so he essentially has 6 wounds on his own, bringing the total to 9 wounds all together. Best save in the unit is a 4+ rerollable. Best Strength is 6 with the GW and Lance on the charge, and altogether they have 6A+4S4 eagles. That's 243 points.
You could get 10 Silver Helms, with Shields, for that price. That's 10 models with a 2+ save, that's 10S5 hits on the charge, plus the 5 Horse attacks at S3. Remember what I said about it being better to have 2x more attacks than to have 1xA at +1S? The same is true here. Furthermore, the SilverHelms have 2 ranks, so they negate enemy ranks when they flank charge, and they provide +1 rank bonus if they're in combat alone.
If you're just keeping your Eagle Nobles around to babysit your regiments, why bother with Fly moves? Just take Cavalry. They do the job better. If you could spare yourself just 57pts more, you could pick up 10 Dragon Princes, who would demolish enemies when compared against the two Eagle Nobles.
When I play, I unfortunately have to treat Manglers and Fanatics as a necessary evil. However, I typically have Lore of Life, so any damage that they cause, I can always bring back. I'm not going to argue against your 3 basic eagles. I'd rather see you only use 2 (because then you're 50pts closer to replacing those Nobles with Dragon Princes) but 3 of them is good enough.
Just understand that only an idiot lets himself be redirected by an eagle. I've played with and against High Elves enough (plus other redirection units like Spawn, Hounds, Wolves, fastcav) to know how to handle it. You sit your Eagle in front of me, and I don't have to charge. Even if I'm frenzied I test to restrain. Then I have three options:
1. waste the eagle with shooting/magic and let you charge me head-on anyways. +1CR for you, goody, but you lose your Spears if you have them.
2. let the eagle sit there and waste your unit with shooting/magic. Next turn you can't charge me, or you charge me head-on +the eagle, just like above. Or, I could even have wheeled a bit so that if you move past me, I can still flank you. Basically, I'm keeping you out of combat, and Elves don't have enough magic/shooting to win games with those phases alone. You have to give in some time.
3. Unless I'm Frenzied, I charge the Eagle, kill it, and then restrain the Overrun and reform to face the unit cowering behind the poor turkey. Thanks for the 50vps, plus the Panic test for me wiping out a friendly in combat within 6".
Like I said, Eagles aren't bad, because as you pointed out, they're good for drawing out Fanatics and Manglers, as well as harassing lone wizards or warmachines, and charging fleeing units to drive them off the field. But redirection in 8th edition is just a myth.
As for posting a list that could beat up on yours- posting my Warriors list in the HE forum is just pointless. I don't usually post up lists for 'paper-wars', because it always just devolves into "I do this, this, and this thing," which you will counter with "Well, I do this and this". It goes on forever. But, I'll post up my 2.2k HE list, explain the reasons behind each unit, and then link it back to here.
I don't mind at all that you defended your list, and I hope that in return you understand that I'm not trying to cut you down by countering your arguments. Discussions like this are probably the next closest thing to actual play-testing of an army, which I cannot stress the importance of enough. I've played in quite a few tournaments, and I've worked on my High Elves for over 10 years now. Once I see the word "tournament" in an armylist, I drop all pretense of building a "for fun" style army, and go straight for throat.
May I ask - are Special Characters allowed in your Tournament? Because if so, Caradryan might be a good choice if you want some MR and combat help for your Swordmasters. Likewise, Korhil can make a unit Stubborn just like the White Lions.
Wwooow!!! Thats a really long reply. If you read this before i have answered properly I have not had the time to read your replies but Im still in this and will answer as soon as possible!
And if you thought i behaved rude when i asked about your list that wasnt my meening. I just wanted to see a real bonehard high elf list
Last edited by jacopat; March 27th, 2012 at 07:46.
If I were trying to put together a 2200pt HE list, I would probably end up with something like this. I have another version that manages to squeeze in some Dragon Princes, but it just feels too "loose" and forced. I'd rather have a list with some cohesion.
L4 Arch Mage w/ Talisman of Preservation, Seer Staff (Life – Throne, Regrowth, Dwellers, Flesh to Stone)
Lore of Life means that I bring back wounds, and a 4+ Ward all the time is better than T6 once in a while. Seerstaff isn't necessary, but guaranteeing the two most important spells (Throne and Regrowth) is huge, and Dwellers is great for breaking up Hordes like Gobs and Marauders, or S3 Elites like Dark Elves
BSB Noble w/ Armor of Destiny, Great Weapon
Generic, 4+ Ward, Heavy Armor, +2S, and he's joining the AoL SM unit for magical attacks.
L2 Mage w/ Silver Wand, Talisman of Endurance (Lore of Shadow)
Contemplated giving this guy Folariath's Robes and using him to eat challenges against opponents without magic weapons (use LoreAtt to switch places with other mage/bsb when in danger) but I like having 3 spells and a 5+ ward more. The two biggest spells you want are Miasma (0-level) and Okkam's. Okkam's for the massive strength for your Spears, and Miasma to ensure that you always get your Rerolls and add a bit of survival to your SMs (-BS for shooting, -WS to be hit on 5's, etc)
39 Spearmen w/ Musician, Standard Bearer
39 Spearmen w/ Musician, Standard Bearer
Giant blocks, deployed Horded for max attacks, or 5x8 for max rank bonus, it just depends on what they need to do. No champs because they're escorting the Mages, so I want to be able to duck into the back of the regiments if challenged.
17 Swordmasters w/ Full Command, Banner of Arcane Protection, Amulet of Light
MR2, Magical Attacks, and fielded at 6x3 with the BSB inside. Decent regiment altogether.
18 Swordmasters w/ Full Command, Obsidian Trinket
A bit less amazing, but still packing MR1 from the Trinket.
Kept the Eagles since you seem to like them, they're not bad, and Allonaire would have a fit if I dropped them all. However, one option that I didn't explore was dropping all 3 Eagles and the ToE on the L2, possibly even the Trinket, and picking up Silver Helms or Dragon Princes instead. This wouldn't decrease your bodycount like my original DP-idea did.