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I am playing a doubles tournament in May with my buddy. High elves (me) and Brettonians (my buddy).
Rules are a legal 1000pt army each with the standard alliance rules. In addition each doubles pair can bring a modelled piece of terrain which can be placed in their half of the board.
Despite this and as expected our army has been chosen to act as a single 2000pt army rather than two distinct forces, so please judge accordingly.
X1 High Elf Lord Heavy Armour, Shield Barded Steed ‘Sacred Incense’ ‘Sword of Might’
x1 Level 2 Mage with dispel scroll. Lore of Light
X25 Spear men with full command
X12 White Lions +1 Musician
X12 Phoenix Guard
X1 Brettonian Lord
X1 Paladin + War Banner
X1 Level 1 Damsel Lore of Beasts
X9 Knights of the Realm + Full Command
X5 Grail Knights + Full Command
X5 Mounted Yeomen + Standard.
In terms of tactics the Elf Lord joins the Grail Knights (which he can do as a trusted ally and because he does not have any Knightly Vows)
The Mage joins the spear men and the two other Brettonian characters go in the Knight of the Realm unit.
The two knight units act as line breakers while the spearmen move up behind with an ‘elite’ elf unit (phoenix guard or white lions) in support. The other ‘elite unit’ (probably phoenix guard) are a reserve unit and can also be used to bait units during deployment with regard to a refused flank tactic.
Finally mounted yeoman are there to boost numbers, distract opponents and charge fleeing enemy.
We have fought one practice game against Empire and Ogres which we won very convincingly but I don’t think our opponents deployed very well (or indeed chose a very effective army)…..
Any thoughts at all would be useful, be as negative, awestruck or indifferent as you like.
The only thing that I would query is whether you need a mage in each list.
I think that I would go with just the HE mage using the Annulian Crystal and taking Beasts.
Aside from the base level beasts spell I am not sure what the Bretonian lady actually brings. If they are in for purely defensive purposes then I would argue that she is probably better value than a HE mage so drop the HE mage entirely. Either way involves slight reshuffling of one list to allow for extra points but creating a lot of free points in the other list.
Good luck let us know how it goes.
Very intersting point. The one game played against Empire and Ogres the two mages worked well together buffing our units and also providing a dispel magic scroll. I know for a few different reasons the Brettonian player will probably not change his army.
On the other hand getting rid of the Elf mage would allow a unit of 17 Pheonix Guard and a bolt thrower.
This would definitely weaken our magic phase which was instrumental in our victory but it would be intersting to see how a larger force did. It would also give us a half decent shooting phase.
For the sake of argument if I dropped the elf mage that would significantly weaken our magic defence (dispel scroll +3 to dispel attempts and an extra channeling dice roll per turn). On the other hand it would free up 188pts.
Question is what to spend this on?
I would argue that the alternative to magic defense would have to be greater offensive capabilitiy.
Choices that present themselves include:
Increasing Pheonix Guard regiment (I don't have too many more White Lions to use)
Including a unit of 5-9 swordmasters
Including a Bolt thrower
Including a Cheap Elf hero.
I am seriously considering the Elf Hero for the spearmen and the Bolt Thrower option.
It seems to me that the purpose of the mage other than defensive is to buff units and provide offensive spells. A hero and bolt thrower surely provides this in a much more controlled and predictable way.
Last edited by Visitor Q; April 20th, 2012 at 11:36.
I think i would have gone about this differently considering how both armies are to fight as 1 single 2000pt force.
When you look at it a just unit types, for a 2000pt army you have 5 characters (not in the cheapest of character choices like goblins), including 2 lord level characters. That to me is just too many.
I would decide which Lord you want to keep and consider making the other option into a hero level character.
(is the bret lord naked or just not sure what hes got on him?)
I take it that Brets have to keep a BSB still so he might aswell stay.
Might aswell keep the mage and damsel.
The only other critism to your list is that maybe your units are a bit on the small side, even for elite units. Now the cavalry can get away with it, but i would consider joining the White Lions and Phoenix Guard into one or the other, and get them a full command.
Unless theres a special tactic your going with i would also drop the banner on the Mounted Yeomen and instead pick up a Musician.
If theres two armies that can pull off elite small units its High Elves and Brets, but i do worry about what would happen against horde style armies or armies that pump out lots of high strength attacks. I teamed up with high elves whilst using a dwarf army at the same points cost and even though we went for a non black powder (pre war of the beared) army with little shooting other than 2 bolt throwers and one repeater, we panned everyone in the store, so it might do quite well with brets.
I would tend to agree with you somewhat with reducing one of the Lord level characters. In practice it is likely to be the Elf Lord. The Brettonian Lord has the Birth Sword of Carcasonne (spelling?) which +1 strength and enemies re-roll armlour saves and a virtue that adds d6 to his units first charge of the game. He has heavy armlour shield etc etc.
I also think you have a point with saying that the two smaller units can potentially be more powerful as one larger unit (certainlya unit of 20 White Lions would kick ass).
However....there is method to our madness.
We felt that 5 grail knights were too weak, they needed some hitting power behind them, which a Elf Hero provides. Crucially the Elf Lord also has Ld10.
The two units of small elte elf infantry is a product of a couple of years of experimenting. The full explaination I might save for another thread on small elf units but suffice to say enemies underestimate the units and often ignore them allowing me to get in unscathed and deliver a full 12 ASF attacks to the enemy.
As for the Yeomen they have a standard to raise our fortitude level for Blood and Glory missions. Nowadays because standards only giveaway 25pts its not such a big deal if it is captured.
I definitely take your point about the Lord vs Hero and freeing up more points to bulk out the army. I am facing Deamons tommorow so I might see how that goes.
Well we have now fought three battles with this list.
Battle 1 (mentioned previously) Vs Ogre/Empire alliance. Punched through enemy line and then rolled up the centre while Pheonix Guard held up three units including a StoneHorn.
Brettonian/High Elf Victory!
Battle 2 Deamons/Deamons hit enemy flank (Flamers and Nurglings) with Knight units and wheeled around to hit a plauge bearer unit and over the course of four rounds of combat demolish it. Meanwhile Spearmen baited unit of blood letters onto our board edge taking them out of the game (they had to wheel around and slowly march back to the fight) Meanwhile White Lions and Pheonix Guard destroyed the enemies right flank which contained Horrors and Flesh Hounds.
Brettonian/High Elf Victory!
Battle 3 Deamons/Deamons. This time against a different Deamon army. Knights charge a flamer unit and a unit of Blood letters head on. Knights get very badly mauled and take an age trying to kill flamers. End of game the Knight of Realm unit and all Brettonian characters are dead having only killed 6 blood letters while Grail Knights have just killed the flamers!
Meanwhile a second unit of flamers takes up residence in a building and over the course of three turns a unit fo White Lions slowly wheels around and charges it destroying the flamers.
Pheonix Guard hit a unit of Flesh Hounds and again take about 7 combat rounds (three or four turns!) to destroy them.
In the centre we a huge unit of Plauge bearers with a Herald and Epidermus into charging the spearmen which they rout but fail to catch. This unit roughly accounts for 1/2 enemy army so our general plan was to pull it out of position and then generally ignore it while the rest of our army deals with the rest of the Deamons. This works as far as it goes except Pheonix guard fail to rout the flesh hounds quick enough meaning the plauge bearers can destroy them.
1 fiend charges spearmen in the rear on turn 6 and destroys 16 of them (don't ask....)
Our wizard spends most of the game being chased by said fiend, in final turns he grows some balls and frys the enemy spell caster who had been a sitting duck for most of the game.
Once blood letters have destroyed the Knights they surge foward and kill the White Lions.
End result emphatic Deamon victory.
Learnt alot from this game, For starters our army needs, needs to act in one fluid combined motion to win. Second our army is no good static. Charging the bLood letters was in hindsight completly rediculous.
Sounds like fun games, bloodletters are fodder for phoenixguard really as theyre killing blow is useless, cant pick every battle though.
Are you finding it too awkward without the second mage it may have made a huge difference in that last game as in protracted combat the elves really need the buffs. That said both armies really want to avoid getting stuck so maybe its better to play properly to avoid it then to go in guns blazing thinking magics got your back.
Thanks for the reports back.
Theres an awful lot of wheeling in these games. Does no one do a quick reform using a musician then make a move as normal? Sure you cant charge but if your sepnding 1-2 turns wheeling its still quicker to reform.
To be honest daemons are probably one of the worst armies you could have faced. Especialy a Daemons+Daemons doubles list (you would have thought people would want to mix it up a little), as they are all elite troops like your own force but with the benifit of not running away if they get trounced in combat. They may pop models for loosing combat but in a big enough unit its not going to matter.
Is your posted list the one you went with in the end?
Yeah we went with posted list with no changes in the end. I think we are concentrating on tactics now rather than army list. We have been using reforming in our battles.
Deamons Deamons is certainly a tough one, blood letters are nasty. It didn't help in our second game that our dice rolls were average to say the least. But that said it was foolish of us to go for the blood letters headon.
Does anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with an Ogre ogre doubles army that has two units of mournfang cavalry (one of 6 one of 5) Not sure what the exact unit upgrades will be.
I think Bretts might have the upperhand there due to the width of 3 cavalry bases, but I guess it depends on how they deploy. Aside from flanking I dont really have any suggestions.
Normally my answer would be magic but I dont think that will work here either.
WL are the best we have for actually killing them but thats only if you can get them to live through being charged. I guess You could bait with PG or spear who hopefully can hold the charge and retain steadfast, then support with WL.
The more I think about it the more I think a failed flee is probably the easiest way to draw a unit to you but I dont know what I would use for that either. Maybe just keep planting the yeomen right in front of the unit, if they charge flee if not then they cant charge anything else. Course all that still leaves the second unit out there... damn.