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Hey. I was looking around at asur.org and I something like this posted on the debate between what Elite High Elf Infantry to get and what sizes the units would do best in. Personaly, this is what I think the block sizes the 7th Edition troops should be in:
-White Lions: 15-20-25 (excellent unit with good resistance to shooting w/the lion cloak, stubborn and woodsmen rules, and striking first with the ASF rule w/S6 attacks)
-Swordmasters: 12-21-24 (Finally living up to there fluff, 2 S5 attacks each and ASF, devastating CC unit but are still vunerable to magic and shooting with a 5+ armor save)
-Phoenix Guard:15-20-25 (now have a 4+ ward save, cause fear, strength 4 attacks, good against shooting and fear causing armies w/ward save but dont deal out as much damage as SM or WL, need a big unit to take advantage of the fear causing rule.)
I'm not to sure about the size of the swordmaster units i might get because of their vuneralbility to shooting and magic but maybe 12 as a support, 21 w/7x3, 24 w/6x4 to get the full advantage of there attacking power. I stand by what I said about the WL and Phoenix guard sizes and you should be at least taking Spearmen in units of 20-25 to make them effective now they are only 9 pts a model and for the LSG, no idea until I see how they where changed. Comments and Drinks anyone? :drinking:
Seaguard are dropping to 12 points, but no change besides that. Probably still not really worth taking, they needed shoot in two ranks.
I agree spearmen should be 20 min, but in smaller battles 15 would be sufficient. Still same amount of attacks, just less rank. Maybe MSU might even work for them at 2k.
I haven't really thought about unit sizes too much. Phoenix Guard should be 20 or more for fear, as you said. Swordmasters could really work at any number since they hit like a ton of bricks. Remember, minimum unit sizes for elite infantry is now 5, maybe take 2 units of 5 SM as flankers?
As for what I will take; I'm definitely buying 20-25 Phoenix Guard, perhaps even 2 units. They are sweet models, and I've wanted some for a while but couldn't justify them in the old rules. They're still not fantastic, but should be worth taking. I'll quite likely buy 20 swordmasters too, I think 18 might be a good unit size for them though. Run them 6x3 to dish out 13 attacks and have 2 ranks.
You know what, I'm almost annoyed that all the elite infantry will be more worth taking now because I don't want to spend a fortune on buying them! I don't know how I'll be able to resist a unit of Phoenix guard even though it'll cost me £50 for 20 minis.
I think that Phoenix Guard would be my preferred choice just because of the models. I would love a decent unit of swordmasters in principle, but I think the models aren't up to much (and I haven't seen anything about new ones), and I suppose white lions are somewhere in the middle there. I think if I got any of them it would be a unit of around 20 depeding on how many ranks/files I wanted to use.
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I really don't think you'll be able to get those large numbers like you think. Unless you drop characters. Remember the characters are going to be a little more expensive. You'll have to have 2 units of spears that to even be remotely effective will be 400+pts for both units FC. I figure if you take a full complement of characters and a magic banner or two, you'll be lucky to get 4 specials with 15 guys in them.
I wonder if taking smaller, no command flankers would be effective.
I picture maybe a big block of PG with 2 large spearmen blocks along side and then maybe some smaller 5-10man flanking swordmasters and some cavalry or something to help out the swordmasters. We're going to be even more outnumbered than before in my opinion because while the spearmen are all cheaper, all the specials went up in price. RBT and Eagles are the same. But horde armies are still going to be difficult.
Maybe use white lions as the flankers who jump thru the woods on one side and take out big stuff (easily fell a giant or ogre/minotaur unit) But just count up the projected points and it will be hard to get a lot of special troops in there.
Yeah... 300+ points for an elte infantry unit with full command, over 400 for the mandatory 2 spears, I assume most people will still take 2 bolts and 2 eagles which is another 300.. And you still need support units and characters. I think realistically you could only aim for 1 20 strong unit of elite infantry in a 2k army, unless you took a small unit of archers as a second core or didn't take many support units.
Spear, spear, PG/SM/WL, chariot, chariot, helm, helm, RBT, RBT, eagle, eagle, then characters. Its probably more numbers than I'm used to taking, if that can be fit into 2k.
the difficulty is going to be what to take?
Many of us already have silver helms and speamen and dragon princes and most of the models.
I bought some Phoenix guard like alot of you, for the models (have 21) and I got a good deal
I have a few Whitelions, have 6-7 dragon princes
and I have a ton of swordsmen that I converted when I first started the army.
The question is, how do I get all of these models into the army and how many to take and how to play them. I know a lot of this will be more clear when the book comes out, because then I'll know if I can get away with playing with 1 less character. The dragon princes are going to be good (love those models too) Swordmasters are always awesome and just got a lot better. WL will be the heavy hitters and are more durable than before. And the PG are just screaming to babysit mages in stoic silence (they are quite durable as well with HA and 4+)
I would love to have some fast cav in the army as well.
Decisions. . . decisions.
This is one thing that is kind of cool about the new army book. I think that 14 for both SM and WL in theory they should be able to stand up in combat without a hero, something that mine always struggled to do in the past.
I think that archers may start too make a bit of a comeback initially just to save on points so you can play with all the new toys at once.
Finally in my opinion PG did best out of the whole thing. They are definitely worth taking and in big blocks, no points change and more than twice as effective sounds fantastic.
I already have a block of 16 SM which I am happy with so I definetly think I will be getting a similar unit of Phoenix Gaurd. I have a few WL to make a minimum flanking unit which should discourage cavalry from getting stuck in combat with nearby spearmen. 8X
Still overall I am going to get me a couple of those Warlion Chariots, just not sure if there is a prequisite to feild them though.
do we know the exact point values yet? last I heard all the foot specials were 15pts each (WL, SM, PG) which will make it difficult to fit very many into the fold. I think the Lion Chariot is awesome, but would have a hard time taking it because like the regular chariots, they have a hard time making it into combat against shooty armies (dwarves, empire, we, etc) Is it T5? IMO, you either have to take 3 chariots or none, because it is so hard to get them into combat without dying.
Lion chariot stats from GW:
Yes, all the elite infantry are 15 points. And the lion chariot is a 55 point upgrade from the normal chariot, so fairly expensive for a chariot.