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So the new swordmasters finally got me thinking..it is commonly expressed that archers in most armies are nigh useless. It is also commonly suggested that elite troops be fielded in smaller blocks in order that they might cause as much damage as a large block for a cheap price. Do you think this is what GW planned?
Many of the elite troops are lightly armored and very easily shot down, thus giving archers a greater purpose.
Just a random thought I had while reading the incredibly long army book thread!
While I don't entirely agree, as it stands initially anyway I think that archers will find their way into quite a few HE armies as a way of saving on points, They will target purely other archers and warmachines too allow the heavy hitters which we now have in spades, to reach the enemy as intact as possible.
No more effective but more common, same sort of idea I suppose, but again just a thought.
I think they made for example SM a somewhat weaker vs. missle fire to counter their devastating CC potential.
I still think the archers exist in the game to be used to counter:
Now on a HE note:
I will be using some archers in my new army due to the fact that with ASF they can better protect themselves in CC against the above called adverseries.
hope it helps
"Ask not the Eldar a question, for they will give you three answers; all of which are true and terrifying to know"
hi the new sword master stats are sick cause the all have 2 attacks each and there champion is basicly a hero level character
Joe_666 are you sure you're on the right thread?;o
I am normally of the mind that str3 shooting is pretty much worthless (except for those armies who can field so much of it that it can do something like WE or Poison Blowpipes) but I am starting to think of maybe taking a unit of archers with the new HE might be useful, mainly bc I don't have enough spearmen models to field 2 full units, but also to keep my core at a minimum (I can spend more on the specials) and to maybe take out some warmachine hunters or fastcav.
My point was this:
GW nerfed archers pretty badly since 5ed (so I hear, I didn't play back then) and it is commonly believed that they are not that useful these days for most armies.
With each new army, and a number of old ones, it seems there are units that are generally used in small numbers just meant to assist and do damage. These units often sacrifice armor for damage.
Dual Wielding Chosen Warriors (Chaos)
War Dancers (Wood Elves)
I'm simply pondering whether or not GW now intends for archers to be meant to kill such units. A smart player will keep them shielded if you have shooting, however, so perhaps not.
well, greatswords have a 4+ and have for last edition as well. They are T3, but they're human. Wardancers are wimps imo anyway. Chaos warriors don't really fit the profile either. Yes, I see your point, but if they made a killer unit that couldn't be killed itself, why would anyone take anything else? There should be some balance. That's what the people who are complaining are talking about concerning the ASF, it kind of throws balance out the window. There still are some units in the game that fall under this catagory (treeman, steam tank, war-alter...etc.) but there are ways of dealing with them as well.
I guess to counter your question, if they gave the Swordmasters a 4+wardsave and their present stats, how would that make the game fair or fun?
Well, Wood Elves got excellent archery, Dwarfs have very good long range (probably the best in the game) and Empire can also field excellent gunlines and have a big choice of artilley. They are 3 of the later books. Then there are HE, our bolt throwers are good, but expensive (Dwarf ones are half the points and get tough, stubborn crew) and our archers are overpriced for the long range damage they can cause, only s3 shots. Compared to the other later armies, the humble High Elf archer really is a lot less.
If they were trying to give archers a greater purpose, maybe they would have been slightly less points or get shoot in two ranks back. Two ranks shooting is by no means game winning, I don't think its all that powerful, but it is a characterful little ability that differentiates our archers from other armies.
People make the point that archers with ASF can now protect themselves pretty well against conventional hunters like fast cavalry, but is that really a big issue? Big enough to take them? Do you take archers for the ability to shoot, or the ability to defend themselves? What if you were given archers that had ASF and 2+ armour for say 15 points, but only s2 bows. Would you justify taking them because they can defend themselves?
And to be honest, my opponents never really target my archers. They usually survive until the end because my opponents don't think they're worth killing over other stuff. Now that they get ASF, they will never be touched and still not really deal that much damage. I wanted to use them as on offensive unit 5*2, but that probably isn't feasible without 2 ranks shooting.
After playing dark elves a fair bit with me dwarves I have found either quarrelers or thunderers to be irreplaceable. They do a wonderful job of thinning down units of executioners, and other similarly armoured units. Whether this is intentional I'm not sure, as many armys elites have had 5+ armour saves, white lions, swordmasters and executioners to name a few, even dwarven hammerers have a 5+ if you forgo the option to add shields. This is the trade off for using the big double handed weapons, and has always lead to these elites being that bit more vulnerable to ranged fire.
aut viam inveniam aut faciam / I'll either find a way or make one.
Well most h.e infantry are easy to shoot down as 5+ Is teh best h.e infantry save. I nearly allways take a bolt thrower and/or 16 archers due to the fact that people allways under estimate them. I remember whe they killed 3 of a 5 man unit of cold ones (6 if you count the hero) and bogging them down just long enugh for my spears to deal with some clanrats (it was a 3 player all for hisself agaisnt d.e and rats.) Very uslefull If you ask me (the bolt thrower also made me proud by taking out a batch of executioners and the remaining cold ones)