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  1. #1
    Son of LO strewart's Avatar
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    I got the book :) My thoughts

    Well, as others have mentioned, it is pretty huge. There is a LOT of fluff in this book, and a full page for each unit. All of the rules stuff is conveniently placed at the back, so it is easier to reach and find. Seems good. I won't confirm rumours, since others have already done that. Here are my initial thoughts on some units so far

    Princes - Wow! These guys are expensive now! Short of finding a really really good combo for them, I really think it will be hard to justify taking them over nobles ever. Offensively, the prince only has one more attack than the noble but costs a hell of a lot more. I think I would rather lose that attack and save a lot of points by taking nobles instead.

    Noble - Well, there is no clause saying a BSB can't take mundane equipment like in the other books, so I'm going to have to say a BSB can take a great weapon. With this addition, rare are the times when I will leave a BSB at home since he can fight just as well as a noble now.

    A short note on the model, I was very disappointed to see that the drawings painted onto all the plastic noble's banners are actually part of the mold. This is going to mean very little variation between armies, I would prefer to make my own design. It is rather chunky, so it will be hard to carve/file out, but by god I will try. And if it fails, I will steal a banner from the archer sprue or something. i also intend to steal one of my mage kit horses to give to the BSB, so I don't have two mounted novles rearing on horses. There will be a large wave of rearing horses for HE nobles now, and I certainly don't want more than one in my army.

    Archmage - This guy also struck me as extremely expensive. In my opinion, not really worth taking now for the power he gives your army. In fact, if you want to go magic strong, take a dragon mage! The dragon mage is just as good, if not better at casting compared to the archmage (those free power dice will really add up, to more than 4), with a few pieces of equipment such as silver wand or jewel of the dusk, he is even better at casting. Plus he comes with a dragon! The magic defense is admittedly a bit weaker than an archmage though. I'd take a dragon mage over an archmage any day, and I'm definitely keen to try out the dragon mage in battle. (The dragon model is on the way, in mail order. I'll get it in a week or less)

    Lion chariot - Pretty much as my initial thoughts went. Nearly double the cost of a tiranoc, only one better AS other than that just as easy to kill, and you won't be charging it alone against units. Which means it is doing exactly the same role as tiranocs on the battlefield, which tiranocs can do well, but costs a lot more. It may hit harder, but for its purpose you don't need it to hit that hard. It is, unfortunately, a waste of points. Plus it is slower than the tiranoc, and doesn't have those two bow shots, which don't do much but can occasionally knock off a rank. And fear isn't going to do anything due to its US. The 6's to hit from fear won't matter, since it would kill a whole rank easily anyway.

    On the model, the chariot kit is pretty cool. I'm once again unhappy that the reigns (which the crew holds) are pretty much essential, since part of the rope is molded onto the lion/horses. Yes, it is a good feature, but there should have been an easy option not to include it for all of your chariots. I wanted to use the horses for reavers, thats going to be harder now that I have to get rope off them and GS the space.

    Silver helms - These poor guys have been screwed over as well. They still get 2+ AS, but they are the same points cost fully equipped as before and now they fight for a very competative special slot. And for less than the point of a spearman per model, you can have dragon princes instead, which have 2 attacks each, higher initiative, higher leadership, higher WS. And of course DP are no longer 0-1. There is no reason to take helms over dragon princes now. Looks like i might need to do a bit of conversion work on my poor helms..

    Thats all that jumped out at me for the specific units. It is true that DP no longer have ithilmar armour, but now characters don't have the option of ithilmar either. I thought they still did, bit disappointing. For a whole unit, it was a big advantage, for a lone character, not so strong since he is normally in a unit anyway, it was a nice fluffy option.

    Caradryan looks good. Teclis is pretty much the definition of an elf; hits very hard and powerfully, but extremely fragile. He is very soft, but has a lot of good magic abilities. One odd point, Eltharion is a level 2 wizard now due to an item, but in the description it says he may choose any of the 8 lores from the rulebook. He can't take High magic?

    Better make a few lists and try it out as soon as I can! Maybe later this week, I'm still in the middle of exams at the moment.

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    nice post strew. I probably ought to get my hands on that book somehow. It seems that they left somethings out or didn't think some things/combinations through all the way.

    I'm suprised that you prefer the dragonmage over the arch mage, they must have really hiked the points on the lord characters. I thought the lionchariot and dragonmage models were nice, but that in actual game play, they would not be worth it. You may prove me wrong. They must have made all the magic items more defensive than offensive or really made the archmage expensive. If you could take a dragonmage without the dragon, that would be nasty, but I hear they are at one cost. It sounds like jewel of dusk and silverwand are about the same as in the last book. is there anything that causes magic resistance (besides Caladryan)? That would be helpful for the dragon mage or swordmasters since they will both be very susceptable to the 2d6 magic missiles now.

  4. #3
    Born from Tears of Angels WraithGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strewart View Post
    Princes - Wow! These guys are expensive now! Short of finding a really really good combo for them, I really think it will be hard to justify taking them over nobles ever. Offensively, the prince only has one more attack than the noble but costs a hell of a lot more. I think I would rather lose that attack and save a lot of points by taking nobles instead.

    Noble - Well, there is no clause saying a BSB can't take mundane equipment like in the other books, so I'm going to have to say a BSB can take a great weapon. With this addition, rare are the times when I will leave a BSB at home since he can fight just as well as a noble now.

    A short note on the model, I was very disappointed to see that the drawings painted onto all the plastic noble's banners are actually part of the mold. This is going to mean very little variation between armies, I would prefer to make my own design. It is rather chunky, so it will be hard to carve/file out, but by god I will try. And if it fails, I will steal a banner from the archer sprue or something. i also intend to steal one of my mage kit horses to give to the BSB, so I don't have two mounted novles rearing on horses. There will be a large wave of rearing horses for HE nobles now, and I certainly don't want more than one in my army.

    Archmage - This guy also struck me as extremely expensive. In my opinion, not really worth taking now for the power he gives your army. In fact, if you want to go magic strong, take a dragon mage! The dragon mage is just as good, if not better at casting compared to the archmage (those free power dice will really add up, to more than 4), with a few pieces of equipment such as silver wand or jewel of the dusk, he is even better at casting. Plus he comes with a dragon! The magic defense is admittedly a bit weaker than an archmage though. I'd take a dragon mage over an archmage any day, and I'm definitely keen to try out the dragon mage in battle. (The dragon model is on the way, in mail order. I'll get it in a week or less)
    I disagree with this whole part. Princes, yes they are expensive but they do also have the option of taking 50 pts more of wargear as well as a star dragon which is the best in fantasy. He can be pretty much customized into a one man army for a good 600 or so points. Contary to the princes, I view the nobles as a cheap way of providing a decent CC hero if you plan on taking a magic heavy list, or want to have a decent commander in a helm/prince unit. love both of the models, no complains once so ever.

    Regarding the archmage ... yes he is expensive, but he is lvl 3-4 with a possibility of a moon dragon mount, which is still a beast even though a bit weaker than a star dragon. He has 100 pts worth of equipment that he can take, which can immunize him vs most shooting/magic attacks. In short however, I think he is still worth it as he can easily ride around poping spells at enemy units and warmachines. Warmachines arent all that much of a problem if one uses the dragon correctly. If one has some decent flanking units, like shadow warriors, eagles or ellyrian reavers than warmachines shouldnt be a problem.

    Dragon mage rides a weak dragon and can be shot down quite a bit easier than a mood dragon, plus he only uses the fire lore which people sometimes find not as useful against certain opponents. In my opinion he is an excellent addition in a 2k game, but a 3k just demands an archmage on a moon dragon. Dont forget the fact that dragon mage doesnt count as a die accumulator. The dragon itself is still a dragon ... but its weak, if getting charged by a decent CC unit he will die no matter if the mage has the fire sword or not, and this is a problem since he is impatuous.

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    I disagree with what wraith gurdian said. What is the point in playing when you can just kill everything with you're prince. Especialy if it gets killed becuase then you have lost the game. The dragon mage seems better than the archmage, if you're worried about what it bieng shot then fly it behind shooting units then breath fire all over them. It also sounds like one awesome distraction.
    . "Stop complaining ponce and hit stuff with yer shiny new axe"

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    Son of LO strewart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WraithGuardian
    Dont forget the fact that dragon mage doesnt count as a die accumulator
    What do you mean? The dragon mage is still a wizard, so still generates power and dispel dice. He just doesn't give the +1 to dispel rolls that other HE mages do.

    Quote Originally Posted by WraithGuardian
    Princes, yes they are expensive but they do also have the option of taking 50 pts more of wargear as well as a star dragon which is the best in fantasy. He can be pretty much customized into a one man army for a good 600 or so points
    Yeah, for over 600 points. Thats nearly a third of your army in a 2k game. And you still need at least a scroll cady for magic resistance, which is at least another 150 or so points. You bette hope that star dragon is a one man army, because there is going to be pretty much nothing else to support him by the time you start spending points on the rest of the army. The battle will be whether your opponent has the means to kill your dragon or not.

    In larger battles, if you want an uber dragon, by all means the prince is the only way to do it. Other than that, if you want him on foot or on horse, not really worth it.

    Do you want an archmage on a moon dragon? Archmages are soft, I wouldn't want one in combat. The dragon mage at least has an extra attack and can take magic weapons.

    I find fire magic useful against most - i is pretty much a pure offensive lore. It doesn't support your troops much, just kills. So I guess it really depends on what you want out of your magic; support or offense.

    Quote Originally Posted by WraithGuardian
    He has 100 pts worth of equipment that he can take, which can immunize him vs most shooting/magic attacks
    I assume you are referring to the combo which makes him ethereal and counts magic attacks as mundane? Yes, it makes him very hard to kill, but then you have very little points left to buy real magic equipment. IMO that archmage will be a big pointsink, he may throw out a few spells but nothing fantastic. The points need to be spent on upgrading his magic to make him worthwhile. On my forum, Criti referred to the combo as 'the boy in the bubble', which I agree with.
    The LO ANZAC Clan!

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    Senior Member Allonairre's Avatar
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    In terms of a dragon mage even the little one seems pretty expensive and he really isn't much better than a prince, 4 attacks at S5 attacks. T6 will protect it but given the choice I will stick with my Prince. I am rather fond of him.

    Dragon mage is probably a better option than Archmage but I like shadow, light and beast lores, killing stuff with magic has never gone that well for me. Probably worth a try though, magnetising the 3 mounts to interchange them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strewart View Post
    Princes - Wow! These guys are expensive now! Short of finding a really really good combo for them, I really think it will be hard to justify taking them over nobles ever. Offensively, the prince only has one more attack than the noble but costs a hell of a lot more.
    Princes are for giant battles at least 3,000 points. The fun of fantasy is derived from balance and characters/units working together. I think a Prince on s Star Dragon is a great idea.


    Quote Originally Posted by strewart View Post
    Noble - Well, there is no clause saying a BSB can't take mundane equipment like in the other books, so I'm going to have to say a BSB can take a great weapon. With this addition, rare are the times when I will leave a BSB at home since he can fight just as well as a noble now.
    I didn't notice this specific, but if it is possible to equip a battle-worthy BSB that is awesome.

    Quote Originally Posted by strewart View Post
    Archmage - This guy also struck me as extremely expensive. In my opinion, not really worth taking now for the power he gives your army. In fact, if you want to go magic strong, take a dragon mage! The dragon mage is just as good, if not better at casting compared to the archmage (those free power dice will really add up, to more than 4), with a few pieces of equipment such as silver wand or jewel of the dusk, he is even better at casting. Plus he comes with a dragon! The magic defense is admittedly a bit weaker than an archmage though. I'd take a dragon mage over an archmage any day, and I'm definitely keen to try out the dragon mage in battle. (The dragon model is on the way, in mail order. I'll get it in a week or less)
    I figure the Archmage would generally only be used in magic heavy armies. The cost shouldn't be a problem in such a case.

    Quote Originally Posted by strewart View Post
    Lion chariot - Pretty much as my initial thoughts went. Nearly double the cost of a tiranoc, only one better AS other than that just as easy to kill, and you won't be charging it alone against units. Which means it is doing exactly the same role as tiranocs on the battlefield, which tiranocs can do well, but costs a lot more. It may hit harder, but for its purpose you don't need it to hit that hard. It is, unfortunately, a waste of points. Plus it is slower than the tiranoc, and doesn't have those two bow shots, which don't do much but can occasionally knock off a rank. And fear isn't going to do anything due to its US. The 6's to hit from fear won't matter, since it would kill a whole rank easily anyway.
    I totally disagree. 4+ save, extra attacks, higher strength and fear for 55 points is more than fair. Remember that fear is not only offensive, but also defensive, and the fear instilled by the lions could protect from charges. Also note that Korhil can ride in one, which would give d6 s5 impact hits, plus four s5 lion hits, 1 s6 great weapon hit and 3 s6 killing blow hits. Devastating.


    Quote Originally Posted by strewart View Post
    Silver helms - These poor guys have been screwed over as well. They still get 2+ AS, but they are the same points cost fully equipped as before and now they fight for a very competative special slot. And for less than the point of a spearman per model, you can have dragon princes instead, which have 2 attacks each, higher initiative, higher leadership, higher WS. And of course DP are no longer 0-1. There is no reason to take helms over dragon princes now. Looks like i might need to do a bit of conversion work on my poor helms..
    Sadly, I agree. I would only use Helms if I was going for a cavalry build.

    Quote Originally Posted by strewart View Post
    Caradryan looks good. Teclis is pretty much the definition of an elf; hits very hard and powerfully, but extremely fragile. He is very soft, but has a lot of good magic abilities. One odd point, Eltharion is a level 2 wizard now due to an item, but in the description it says he may choose any of the 8 lores from the rulebook. He can't take High magic?
    Yeah, that baffled me as well. An answer would be appreciated. On the characters, the tweaks to Teclis and Tyrion seem to, if anything, have improved their capabilities. However, the latter will need heavy protection. Finally, to Caradryan. Feel free to disagree with me here, but he seems to be a challenge orientated character (especially against bigger targets), and it doesn't seem to matter if he dies. No-one wants d6 automatic wounds...
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    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    I am very pleased with the new book. I still retain my complaint about the losing the All Cav option. But the army is still tactically sound and actually more enjoyable to play.

    The SilverHelms have been severely hamstrung, seeing as they are only 9 points cheaper than their DragonPrince counterparts. Making them special is what really hurts, since they are going to dissappear off the face of the game-table. Mine are going to be happily converted (probably illegally too, once i get my Prince)

    The infantry choices are great, even though I won't be using them. Sword Masters are just crazy death machines, racking in two attacks each and striking first with their greatweapons. The White Lions still remain a 'here and there' choice. They are our only high Strength unit, with their great weapons, but they lack armor and the same hitting power of the Swordmasters. Pheonix gaurd are monstrous as well- causing fear and becoming a tarpit if there ever was one.

    The chariots, Strewart summed it up. Perhaps in a Chariot host yes, take one for the Fear aspect, but they don't hit much harder than their Ellyrion buddies.

    I LOVE the dragons. My army will foolishly include 3 in a 3000pt list. Just because I think they are awesome, and because they are the new Elven "trademark". Dragon Mages are more powerful than I expected, and I've already tested a prince on a moondragon in a 2k game. Yes, he is expensive, but he can lay down the hurt.

    Loss of Honors hurts us a little, but only in the magic department. Most of the abilities offered by Honors have become magic items, but are sadly limited to 1 per army.

    Makes me kind of angry to see so many players flocking the the banner of the twin thrones. We elves used to be a rare and declining race, and for 5 years I enjoyed the right and title of the ONLY high elf player in the shop. Now, there are atleast 3 people who plan to make elves their primary force. Lousy upstarts... maybe atleast now we'll get more respect from GW

    My High Elves are going through a repaint at the moment, the terrible schemes from their 5 year past are coming off, and they are going to be respelendent in the cream/aqua of Caledor.
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    How many heroes/lords could you fit on dragons in a 2,000 point game now? Taking max magic items on each character. Since you don't need as many core as the norm it could be an interesting setup

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolock View Post
    How many heroes/lords could you fit on dragons in a 2,000 point game now? Taking max magic items on each character. Since you don't need as many core as the norm it could be an interesting setup
    each dragon uses up a hero slot, so you can only fit 2.
    For fun, one day, I may take 2 dragon mages and see how fast my opponent dies or kills me.

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