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this may take a while so bare with me. im not new to WFB, i know how to play, bu this is my first post as a new member! I only played a few battles and most against my brother and his Orc and Goblin horde. Ive always, though, been a HE player. i got halfway through building my army and then the new book came out.
Just got my hands on the new 2007 HE army book and MAN what a read! i had what i considered a great list for my army with the old book (2000pt based on none other than Silver Helms and Dragon Princes) and now it's literally thrown that army list down the toilet, flushed it and then burnt the toilet down.
I tossed out my old fluff and lists (which was almost a novel of epic proportions) and started anew. But i didnt know where to start as there are so many great new stories, newer and better ways to build an army and new models... ahhh...
I came to the conclusion that there may be too many options for players and they would end up with at least one unit of each entry to chop and change as each battle came up but in a desperate attempt (and a needly cheap option as just ex student and current jobseeker goes = no cash in hand) i am trying to get a little help on what is the best list for me, my style of play and have some awesome looking units to go with it.
This is my theorising on the matter thus far to make a balanced army capable of taking on many armies and not focused on a single purpose...
- we can have 4 focuses,
1 - cc defensive (Pheonix guard, spearmen, RBT x 2, rank of archers, dragon mage, cav etc)
2 - cc offensive (swordmasters, eagles, spearmen, archer rank, mages/archmage chariot or cav etc)
3 - shooty (archers, chariots, reavers, shadow warriors, mages/dragon mage etc)
4 - magic (archmage/mages, pheonix guard or white lions, lots of cav, spearmen and archers etc)
These 4 types we can easily mould into as High elves. In this examination this is across the board domination in all styles of play which made me think: we may be able to specialise in anything but if we dabble into everything we loose focus of the army and end up with too many varying units not strong at holding. I also came across another train of thought that if we want to we can load up on cores and use specials to flank for larger, horde armies but then for specialist armies like ourselves load up on specials and use cores to flank.
The last ideas of a rambling man came to me by deciding what units to leave behind. these units i 'discovered' became (almost) useless in the new list. Archmage on Moon dragon and Silver helms. The units that became back in were Pheonix Guard, White Lions, Lotheren Sea Guard and Dragons.
Using this information i had clogged in my braain vat i picked out 5 army compositoins which i believe are reasonably balanced but still specialise, easy to put together, cheap (relatively) to collect and i can write a reasonable amount of fluff about them all and what province etc. bear in mind going for 2000pt composition
1 - Archer rank, RBT x 2, spearmen, white lions, Lion Chariots, eagles, Korhil and mage/archmage (based on Chrace)
2 - Spearmen and archer rank or LSG, RBT, eagles, Swordmasters, mages (many) and reavers or Shadow warriors and 1 noble (based on Hoeth)
3 - spearmen and archer rank, RBT x 2, Pheonix guard, dragon mage, caradryn, dragon princes noble or mage (kinda Pheonix King based)
4 - Seaguard, RBT, dragon princes or Silver helms, dragon mage, prince on dragon, and if i can cram it in, small unit of Pheonix guard (Caledore)
5 - archer rank x 2, RBT x 2, dragon mage, mage, Chariots (2 tiranoc and 1 Lion), shadow warriors, noble to go with SW or Korhil in chariot. (shooty/tiranoc ish)
...now i can breathe...
I just wanted to know peoples thoughts on helping me out on what i should do, which army to pick and changes/adjusments and amount i should take and finally other peoples thoughts to add to the philosophical stuff.
Thanks for taking the time cause i know its long... and tedious ;?
Last edited by teddy; November 28th, 2007 at 07:26.
I think all of us paniced a little bit when the book first came out. Let me give you some of my suggestions and opinions and see if it helps you figure out what you want to do (I had to do the same thing and am still doing it)
There is not enough room (even with the special expansion) to run one or two of everything like you suggested. Some of what I'm going to tell you is based on the people I play in my area and the competitions I 've seen. It may be different in your area.
Named characters suck. Most of the characters in the book are either too powerful, or have silly builds which don't help me or my army. Both the heros (cadrayan and korhil) have horrible armor saves and imo, will have a hard time staying alive in a fight (esp a duel/challenge) I know Cad has a 4+ward, but he also only has str4. Korhil might be useful because he can lead a stubborn 9 WL unit, but I don't like to get myself into combats where I have to rely on stubborn to keep in the game. In other words, I think you can build your own characters better - and make up your own fluff.
I think the Dragon mage and chariots, will still have a hard time getting across the table. There are just too many dwarf, empire, WE, other shooting armies out there to blow the mage off his dragon or kill little T4 chariots and we don't have the slots/units to provide screens.
I think a balanced list is always the way to go. I play in a club where you rarely know who you're going to play on a given night, so a balanced list is better to take all-comers.
Spearmen are pretty good. Compared to most core, these guys are pretty good (they're not killers, but most core aren't) Archers are not good and still expensive. Seaguard are still really expensive and not that good (you can spend those points somewhere else better) The only reason to take archers is that you want to skimp on your core to take more specials. RBT's provide the only good shooting in the army (besides the Reaver bow) I'll probably take 3 RBT's to force the enemy to come to me and to take out enemy giants, chariots, warmachines, etc.
Dragon Princes are good, but silver helms are not bad. You can still use these guys. They are cheap and have a good save. You can still run them in units of 5 with a musician and they can still take a flank or flee and set up a flank charge. Don't count them out completely. But yes, dragon princes will be good in the army.
A lot of what I would do, is play with what models you have until you can get/try something else. My friend has almost completely used the exact same list that he used before the new book. The only thing that changed was his magic items a bit (due to the changes)
Magic heavy is more tricky now. Because we have no honor system. It will be difficult to dominate every game offensively. Defense, we're still good, but not being able to have honors hurt us. No Seer or channeler still hurts, and there are too many arcane choices now, and it's hard to make a good combo. We can still pack a punch, but if you play magic heavy, there will be games where you have bad spells and your magic doesn't do anything.
I have to say- i ran into the same brick wall that you did when the new book came out. I had amassed 2 Chariots, 2 Eagles, 10 DPs, 5 Ellyrions and 30 Silverhelms over 6 years and declared my army 'done'. Now i've got noplace to put them all, and have to bolster the infantry that i do have.
I like the third list that you offered up, for a few reasons
1: my army is also Caledorian themed, and quite dangerous
2: dragon mages pwn all!
3: this seems to be the route that all of us grizled old cavalrymen are taking
the only bad part in your list is that Prince. That's a 600pt model depending on what you run on him. That's going to be alot of points in one package. I'd suggest putting that into mages. A Dragon Mage is very good if there are other mages there to back him up, and generate casting dice and so forth.
And secondly, I'd look at converting your SHs to DPs, just because for 9pts more, you get an additional attack, better WS, the ability to carry banners, and fireproof armor (just in case).
First and foremost... THANKS FOR THE ADVICE! im not the only one suffering all cav loss syndrome...
having a look back and starting to organise a few lists i realised the same thing... magic has been cut down on and the shooty armies of the high elves, although possible can still get dominated by the wood elves and the massed shooters of the empire. Assault armies ive discovered are great - if you can get them across the board safely. the only way you can do tis is by harrasment with SW, eagles or the dragon mage. DM would do this well but doing so will get him killed and it's way too many points to loose so early... but i still love it! the eagles are the best for this as even the beefed up SW will still get overun easily. I like the caledorian theme because i am the slowest painter in the world and it gets my army on the table faster (i only need to buy two more dragons) but i know it wont perform brilliantly - will make excellent theme though... ive done some tests and watching of battles and found that the SM combined with a DP hammer work well and a few flanking cav units do well to cover for the time it takes for them to cross the board. and although i love the chariot models i agree that they get hammered. if i was going to have one just cram so many shooters, flankers, mages and a DM i to the list they (hopefully) dont know what to go for. the chrace army performed well up untill the chariots got tken out and from there it was a slow and painful death to watch
i kinda combined a new list based on your suggestions and came up with something like this...
2 small units of 5 - SH or elliryian reavers w/musician (flankers)
large unit of Dragon Princes (hammer)
rank of archers (protect the bolts for the 3 seconds they are worth)
throw in a unit of Pheonix guard or White Lions for staying power or Swordmasters to assualt
combine these with a noble to head the princes, and another with the reaver bow to pick off things and 2 mages to protect and halt enemy magic
either that or a DM with the star lance, mage to protect him and noble in the dragon princes
This is loosely based off my third idea which was the best and most balanced one. ive just added more cav, taken out treeman killer caradryn and rounded it off by taking out (sorta) the DM. sounding better?
im starting to shape up a lot better and get my head around this new book - finally
Sounds really good.
I would go with the Reavers over the Silver helms. Cheaper, faster and better at what you want them to do. With SM and Dragon knights if the reavers are shot at it is almost a bonus you can cross the board in 3 turns with your infantry and have a flank from reavers to support them, and 2 with cavalry, probably not get them a flank to support.
For setting up HE you can try the following steps. This is the way I look at it. You can certainly find hundreds of other ways, but anyway:
1. First you need to decide do you want RBTs or eagles. With eagles I can only see offensive armies, as the enemy doesn't have any reason to get to you quickly (unless you've got really heavy magic).
If you are going to use RBTs, and still want to have offensive army, the ideal is that the enemy will advance, while you will set up counter charges, get to flanks, while doing some damage with RBTs. You don't want to start the cc too soon, as then your X00 points for RBTs were wasted.
3. If you want your army to be balanced you need some magic, so the next decision is how many mages and what level. The heavier you magic, the more defensive your army, as you want more turns to use the magic. Also the more you spend on magic the less you will have for close combat.
4. Next is the time to think about small arms shooting. Personally I don't like archers. The only reason I would use them would be, to hide a mage, but there are better units to do that. With no archers you've got only a few options left: Reavers, Shadow Warriors, Noble with bow etc. In general you will have more use of them in a defensive army.
5. With the core I can only see one good option, and that is spearelves. You just need to decide how many units you need.
6. And Finally the hardest decision: special choices. I think they were covered pretty well in other posts.
From what I've seen, the most effective armies are the ones that go all the way, either defensive, offensive, heavy magic, killer units, etc. If you take a bit of this, a bit of that it rarely works. The worst thing to do is to go for the look. I like the dragon mage and lion chariot, but I don't really know what to do with them, is a big no. At least have some plan, and go for combos (for example: spearelves + chariots + RBTs. The enemy won't shoot the chariots as he will be busy with RBTs, you've got something to stop his advance on RBTs and great tool for flanking).
Anyway have fun (and crush the enemy to small plastic pieces).
sound advice for any HE player!
im starting to think we should make a thread called '101 best units and uses for a HE victory'
number 1 should be 'forget core - the only choice is spears!'
ill post up my list in the army lists thread when it's completed for all to see