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Alright I'm feeling a bit of a rant on these guys, and id like to see if people agree. So with lno further adue ... *deep breath*
These guys are unbelivably broken, at 15 points a Piece these guys get more power than any other combat units, with the exeption of elite knights (Grail, Chaos and Blook keep now i guess) 2 Attacks each hitting on 3's (almost always) 3 or possibly 2's to wound. And they will always take these attacks because they strike first (great weapons and all) Lets compare that to black orcs and Chaos warriors. They are both the same(ish) points depending on equipment. Sword masters will hit first of them all. They have the highest WS of them all. Although when equipd with great weapons black orcs hit 1 str higher, they suffer the big negative of using great weapons and only get a single attack. And Choas warriors cost 2 points extra for hallaberds or great weapons, and suffer the same disadvantages as the orcs. As far as attacks go they varry, but out side of chosen/khornate chaos warriors with extra weapons, the Sword masters will at least be tied for attacks, then they will have most Strength. Now defence wise swordsmen suffer at shooting, due to their toughness. They have heavy armour, and both other units can take shields adding 1 to their save. But in combat hitting first helps keeps them keep alive, becausethey will likley whipe out a front rank(or in my case 2!)
And although they suffer defencivly in the shooting phase, some races can't even shoot. And certain races will have their shooting killed by magic and Elf shooting.
So now we have bad ass combat unit, sounds so good it must be rare....no wait special. Ohhh and the high elves are specialized so you can litteraly field 10 spearmen (20 at 2000) then a general (and im not even going to add another couple paragraphs on them) then Swordmasters ! 6 units at 2000 is flat rediculous.
I'm sure there are sollutions but do you realy think they are worth 15 pts considering what else 15 points buys.
Thanks for reading
Here is my rant against people who aren't particularly good at the game so they rant about something being broken.
Firstly play better next time. They are ld. 8 5+ armour T3 for x amount of points. They are fairly expensive, pretty much every army has a way to deal with these units. I am tired of people complaining about this unit, if you can't find a way too beat them don't cry cheese, find someone who actually knows the game and understands tactics and how to win and ask them how they would deal with it. I could help if you tell me what you use, shoot them, magic them, flank them, chariot them, flee from them. They are a ton of points and are neuralized by a ridiculous amount of things. In all my games against them all they have killed is a grand total of 2 knights before dying (tied with the star dragon).
Also comparing them to Blorcs and chaos wariors is a dumb argument as both units are ridiculously overpriced. Then the rant escalades to include the entire HE army. Frankly, I was not impressed by the army at first and I am still not, the points cost are fair but the army in all is fragile and generally does not have enough units because of the large point costs. Please instead of condemning something them to cheese just ask for tactics first please, I am rather fed up with calling something cheesy because you can't beat it at first.
2009 Tourny records (W-L-D) (20-4-4):
9/56, 1/12, 2/14, 4/14, 32/82, 1/6, 16/72
I actually think they are rather weak. A unit of them costs a massive amount of points, and shooting or magic will just absolutely blitz them. You say races will be neutralized by HE shooting and magic? Well you just described a list which is general, spearmen, 6x swordmasters. I see no magic or shooting their, that list would admitedly be incredibly powerful against other armies with no magic or shooting, but very weak against the majority of others. And HE shooting is rather pathetic; overpriced archers or bolt throwers that I guarantee will never kill their points worth. Our magic can be effective, but it is very expensive in points and won't leave a lot left for an army.
But thats not the point of this thread. SM are weak because they are incredibly easy to kill and cost a huge amount of points. White Lions have good armour to shooting, and still high strength in combat, plus they can hide in woods and are stubborn. Phoenix Guard have ward saves for great all round protection, cause fear and have decent strength. Swordmasters... Well, they have multiple high stregth attacks but thats it, they die very very easily. Yes, if they manage to reach combat they will kill pretty much anything they face short of bad dice rolling, even if the opponent is charging them from the rear. But they are still only one very expensive unit.
Want a few ways to take them out? Hold them with a stubborn unit. Shoot/magic them. Attack them from two sides at once. Use chariots (big one, impact hits go before their great weapons). Use terror. Bait and flee, keeping them out of combat. There are lots of ways to deal with them.
Im not totally sure what you are saying- are you saying that they have been made too good, or are you saying that they are too expensive?
Even at large points games there arent going to be too many of them in any normal HE army, and as you yourself said they are vulnerable to shooting. The armies which lack a great deal of shooting power such as Chaos and Ogre Kingdoms have units capable of beating swordmasters in cc if used correctly.
Yes they are good, but at the end of the day they are elite HE infantry, they are meant to be good, same as Dwarf Hammerers, Empire Knightly orders and Chaos Warriors- lets have less moaning and more constructive tacticas to eliminate these types of units people!
PLAN CLAN MAN!!
He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man- S. Johnson
To my crossbowmen or thunderers, swordsmasters may as well come to the field bearing a "shoot me" sign rather than their swords, they won't get to use them.
aut viam inveniam aut faciam / I'll either find a way or make one.
^Whatever they say^
I agree SM could cost a point more or so but the army you're describing, would be very easy to beat for any army except maybe a khorne list. I would go as far as saying they are the shock troops of the HE: High damage rate, low survivability.
They are neither broken or overpowered. You compare them to chaos warriors but they are ridiculously overpriced. And if upgraded to chosen i believe they could give SM a run for their money.
Stop ranting, and begin thinking!
5000p. High Elves
I know they drop to shooting, thata a given with toughness 3 and 5+ armour. But out of the group of people i play with 2 have any serious shooting, and although we could probly all add more thats totaly throws off ballance.
But to be honest i didnt realize Black orcs and chaos were over priced so il try a couple more.
Lizardmen saurus 14 pts Pros spears, cold blood and toughness 4 Cons str 4, innitive 1, ws 3
Lizardmen Temple guard 17 pts Pros Cold blood toughness 4 Cons in 2 ws 4
Im sure I could go on, but do you realy think that they are worth 15 pts considering what else 15 points buys ?
And just because I didnt post about tactics on librarium, dosnt mean i didn't ask about it. And basicaly what I got was, flank them, shoot them. One of which I did (flank) And one of which I didn't have (shooting)
This is a great discussion, however like Orkimedes41792 I am a bit tired of people complaining like this. Herman also makes a valid point, SM are low surviverability and do yearn to be shot at, an armour save of 5+ is somewhat of a joke in my opinion = ( Furthermore s0m3w0n I must disagree, I think 15 points is an accurate cost, they do seem to get expensive when I am making my lists... And you said you have no range? How can that be? So you are going full melee? I don't mean offence by my next comment but please hear me out. If you are not going to take range (either magic or shooting which EVERYONE HAS, please tell me you can't) then please do not complain about the units of Asur being broken, it seems by you going for a melee list and not being willing to adapt adapt and use range against our SM it is perhaps your own stuborness for not making a more ranged oriented list, however instead of changing it seems you would rather accuse SM as "being broken." Does this make sense sir? I don't mean to offend, and you know, I could be incorrect, I am just stating the most logical explanation to me. (IMHO the only thing that is close to broken is that Anvil of Doom from the Dwarves! But even that may be iffy, there is always ways around stuff, you just gotta stratagize and find out what works. Don't be discouraged, use your cunning and figure out the solution ^^ It is there, where there is a will, there is also a way! ^^)
-1st Army-High Elves 81/11/9
-Second Army-Lizardmen 6/0/0
The only thing I find brokken is Thorek.
I asked you what army you use, if you want help we could aid you in flanking, fleeing from them and whatever was also mentioned if you just tell us what army you are using.
Saurus are also an overpriced unit, you have compared SM to 3 units rarely taken by players. If you compared something that has the same price as SM and is at alleffective then maybe your argument might hold some water. However, I feel that they are accurately priced as vanquisher stated, for example squig hoppers are the same points, can charge an enemy without seeing them, have the same number and strength attacks as SM only their frontage can vary according to the enemy plus they can go through terrain no problem and are ItP. They are more effective than SM imo and are the same price. I would even say Grave Guard and Tomb Guard, who are considrably cheaper than the SM are much better buys.
2009 Tourny records (W-L-D) (20-4-4):
9/56, 1/12, 2/14, 4/14, 32/82, 1/6, 16/72