Archers VS Spearmen in low point battles - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

Welcome to Librarium Online!

Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!

Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!


Register Now!

User Tag List

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 13
  1. #1
    Senior Member MisterDutch's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    365
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    19 (x1)

    Archers VS Spearmen in low point battles

    Alrighty, now that the armybook has changed, we only need one core unit before we can start taking those lovely elite units. Once I get some more money, I will start playing Warhammer once again, and will start an entire new High Elf army from scratch. My first aim is to get a 1000 point army fully painted, but what core unit to get?

    I'd love to put a Dragon Mage in my 1000 points list, even if it would be a big risk because of it's hefty point cost. I'll probably get a small Dragon Prince unit (or two, maybe) to accompany him and perhaps an Eagle and/or some Swordmasters. Yet - which core unit should I get?

    I'll only need to get one, and the Lothern Sea Guard (while being significantly better with the new armybook) I won't get. So... Archers or Spearmen it is!

    I like both units now, seeing as both have decreased in point costs. I'm wondering whether to take a medium-sized unit of spearmen to act as a secondary CC unit next to the Dragon Princes/Swordmasters but then again, Archers might be very nice too! But are they worth it in 1000 point games?

    Advice would be much appreciated, because I am really short on cash and I would like to get a functioning 1000 point army up and running, as soon as I can.

    A Tau Ethereal was thought to have been killed today by a Bloodthirster. However, many Tau were seen fleeing the scene and are considered suspects.

  2. Remove Advertisements
    Librarium-Online.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    Herman1004 Rising Leviathan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Age
    23
    Posts
    1,266
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    125 (x4)

    Great that you want to build a HE army!;Y

    IMO you should wait with archers until you hit 2000 points. Though they are great against some units like thunderers, skinks, screens and fast cavalry, they tend to not giving back their points. I much prefer spearmen as they can provide static combat res and quite many attacks (Though only strength 3). I would, however, not underestimate the archers and forget about them completely.

    My advice to you would be to get both a unit of spearmen and archers. This way you can variate your army depending on which army you're facing. If you definitely won't get both I would stick with the spearmen as an anvil unit and use the SM and DP as hammers.

    Hope it helped and good luck with your army.
    5000p. High Elves
    1000p. Eldar

  4. #3
    Member Lord Vercingetorix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Farmington, New York
    Posts
    117
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    2 (x1)

    I am just starting out with my new HE army. Really just got the older box set with the old rules in it on thursday. I am planning on a seaguard unit. XX points yes but you have the option of both a archer way or spear way. I am going to try that first and if it works i will let you know. IMHO

    Please don't post individual model costs. -Spector
    Last edited by Spector; March 3rd, 2008 at 02:05.
    I shall call him Squishy, and he shall be mine, and he shall be my Squishy.

  5. #4
    Senior Member MisterDutch's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    365
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    19 (x1)

    Quote Originally Posted by herman1004 View Post
    Great that you want to build a HE army!;Y
    Thanks!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by herman1004 View Post
    IMO you should wait with archers until you hit 2000 points. Though they are great against some units like thunderers, skinks, screens and fast cavalry, they tend to not giving back their points. I much prefer spearmen as they can provide static combat res and quite many attacks (Though only strength 3). I would, however, not underestimate the archers and forget about them completely.
    Yes, I am worrying that armorless T3 bowmen who shoot with S3 bows won't really do a lot in most of my battles. Spearmen on the other hand also seem very weak despite their always strike first and lots of attacks... from what I remember when I used to play, I always saw high elf spearmen being run over like they were hot butter.

    Quote Originally Posted by herman1004 View Post
    My advice to you would be to get both a unit of spearmen and archers. This way you can variate your army depending on which army you're facing. If you definitely won't get both I would stick with the spearmen as an anvil unit and use the SM and DP as hammers.

    Hope it helped and good luck with your army.
    Thanks. I will probably end up with both units, though in my current (financial) situation I am hesistant about buying a unit and maybe not using it. But I'll see what I can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Vercingetorix View Post
    I am just starting out with my new HE army. Really just got the older box set with the old rules in it on thursday. I am planning on a seaguard unit. XX points yes but you have the option of both a archer way or spear way. I am going to try that first and if it works i will let you know. IMHO
    Yeah, Seaguard are very good on paper, and they can be very good on the battlefield as well. But I have two worries: Firstly seaguard cost quite a lot more points and this can make quite a difference in lower point games (and I'm trying to make a 1000 point army first) and secondly, depending on how you use them, they either end up shooting all the game and thus acting like an even worse Archer unit (bows instead of longbows and maybe even not all models being able to shoot due to ranks) or they get into combat really fast thus only acting like a spearmen unit, just more expensive.

    Maybe if I learn how to use Seaguard effectively, I could really use them to their best potential? Hm... I shall have to think on it.

    Thank you too, and keep me updated on how it goes!
    Last edited by Spector; March 3rd, 2008 at 02:06.
    A Tau Ethereal was thought to have been killed today by a Bloodthirster. However, many Tau were seen fleeing the scene and are considered suspects.

  6. #5
    Senior Member MisterDutch's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    365
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    19 (x1)

    Oh, and just this other idea I just got:

    See if I'd wanted to get a unit of 28 Spearmen OR a unit of 28 SeaGuard. Deployed in 7x4, the SeaGuard will only be able to shoot with 7 S3 attacks, as I won't be placing them on a hill. I'd want to send them forwards into the battle in order to make use of their Spearmen part. (keeping them on the hill would be a total waste of point)

    Now, a unit of 28 Spearmen would be almost 100 points CHEAPER then a unit of 28 SeaGuard! For those 100 points I could get a Repeater Bolt Thrower, which is far better at shooting stuff than those 7 S3 attacks the SeaGuard can give me.

    Another reason I doubt the usefulness of Lothern SeaGuard...
    A Tau Ethereal was thought to have been killed today by a Bloodthirster. However, many Tau were seen fleeing the scene and are considered suspects.

  7. #6
    Rushing Jaws Ancalagon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Lincolnshire, England
    Age
    28
    Posts
    1,541
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    238 (x6)

    Seaguard are one of the units I wish that they had changed in the new book. Like everyone says, they are more expensive than spearmen and archers and they can only really do the job of one of those units at any one time, meaning that they generally aren't worth it. I would have liked to see them get one or two statline increases (say WS5 for example), and perhaps shoot in two ranks, after all they are professional soldiers while spearmen and archers are only citizen levy. It seems fairly obvious that the seaguard would be more skilled at what they do.
    Thou shalt remember:
    Warhammer Fantasy armies do NOT have Codices. They have Army Books.

    LINK - Guitarists of LO Group

  8. #7
    Herman1004 Rising Leviathan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Age
    23
    Posts
    1,266
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    125 (x4)

    You are right about this.

    LSG are way too expensive and never give back their points. Even if you deployed them 7 in a rank you would only get to shoot 2-3 time before you get into CC. Then it's much better to get an RBT to handle the shooting, though they rarely give back their points they are necessary for any HE army.

    Good luck!
    5000p. High Elves
    1000p. Eldar

  9. #8
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    inside your head
    Posts
    9,221
    Mentioned
    77 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    1480 (x8)

    Eh- actually, I am a huge fan of LSG in lower point games. And I field a list very similar to what you are proposing: DM, 2xDps. but instead of the eagles and/or SM, I field an RBT and a unit of 21 LSG. The affect is pretty good.
    The mage and the RBT are good for drawing your enemy in towards you. Then the DPs and Mage can hit any troublesome units. The rest are left to the LSGs, who are shooting away, ranked 14and7. Right before you get charged, you reform into 7x3 (you can still shoot this turn as well). Then, when they charge you, you can stand and shoot again, giving you effectively 28S3 attacks, all of which strike first. The effect can be devastating, even worse when you are on a hill.
    Pts Values for AoS here!

    Nippon Armybook: Isuu, Scribd, and free at Google Docs

  10. #9
    Senior Member MisterDutch's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    365
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    19 (x1)

    Exactely what I meant - they can be very effective indeed!

    But of course, they have to fit in with the army. You got an RBT, and I don't, so your army is already more geared towards shooting.

    Even though it will require 2 different playing styles, you can just line up the options and think about which option is better:

    A large block of LSG + 1 RBT

    VS

    Swordmasters + Small core unit + maybe an eagle

    Both can form solid cores for a 1000pts army, right?
    A Tau Ethereal was thought to have been killed today by a Bloodthirster. However, many Tau were seen fleeing the scene and are considered suspects.

  11. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    New York
    Age
    31
    Posts
    126
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    16 (x1)

    I think people are missing the real issue here (I'm assuming this thread isn't about fluffiness as it is trying to make a competitive list, disregard this if that's not true for you)... HE pay so many points per model, that at 1k, you're really just trying to field a minimum effective unit to fill your requirement for one core unit. That way you have maximum available points to spend on your ultra-expensive (but excellent!) special and rare slots. So, IMHO, you have to ignore LSG as a potential choice because they "waste" so many points. The two questions you should be asking are: (A) what is the minimum size of Spearmen you can take to have an effective unit, and ( whether or not the point differential to a minimum unit Archers will help your particular list.

    For me, the answer to (A) in most cases is 18 (sometimes it's slightly higher), and you need to take a Standard at a bare minimum. Thus your minimum-cost Spearmen unit will cost you 172 points. You always take the minimum on Archers, and never have command, so that doesn't change. So for question (, if you know what army you're facing, the answer is trivial (standard troops with T3 means you take Archers, T4 or higher you take Spearmen), but if you are fielding a tournament or all-comers list, it's going to be very dependant on what else you're fielding.

    For example, in my 1k cavalry list, featuring 2 units of Dragon Princes, a unit each of Reavers and Shadow Warriors, and 2 Nobles on Eagles, I need to scrape every point I can, and the Archers will actually be helpful (need to shoot those war machine crew!). Spearmen are a dead spot in this list, they won't be able to keep up with my speedy cavalry.

    By contrast, in my infantry-based 1k list, where I can't afford to run 2 blocks full of Phoenix Guard as anvils and still have room for RBTs, I have to run a Spearmen block and a Phoenix Guard block, which are flank-guarded by a 7-man unit of Swordmasters or White Lions.

    BTW, for those of you who haven't played a lot of 1k games yet, large batches of missile fire = FTW against a lot of armies... but HE archers are the exception to the rule because you can't afford to field more than 1 or 2 (at the most!) minimum units, mostly because they cost 1.5x or 2x what everyone else's S3 missile troops do!!!
    Last edited by ga1661; March 3rd, 2008 at 08:51. Reason: Typo

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts