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Who here has played the new Vampire counts? A guy told me that they have too much magic, if that is possible O.o. In my opinion, since the skeletons and Zombies, which are the backbone (no pun intended) of a VC army, are weaker than Elves in combat. Plus HE can easily be made to be Anti magic.
then you will realize that the VC have the possibility to shut down our magic phase, and out-magic us any day of the week. They can also out-fight us if a smart player is at the helm.
Even a "balanced" VC list is going to have 10 powerdice and about 3-4 bound spells (at least). Everyone of their heroes are better stat-wise and have access to better items in my opinion.
I would disagree that the backbone of the new VC is skeletons and zombies even though, they are more than capable of getting a flank charge on any of our units during their magic phase. They are also better in combat due to an item called the Helm of Commandment. Which any unit within 12 of the user can have his WS (7) which means instead of hitting on 3's we're hitting on 4's or worse. The backbone of any good VC army is going to be BlackKnights, Grave Guard and Ethereal wraiths. There are several banners that can make a small unit of black knights or grave guard nearly impossible to beat (fear outnumber, +1 to hit, and van hel's gets hatred for free) If you combine all of these, with a decent opponent, you'll find it very hard to beat.
HE have decent magic, but unless you're taking 3 mages you don't have a chance of stopping half their spells. They can outfight us, outmaneuver us, have better toughness. We have very few magical or flaming attacks to deal with regeneration or ethereal. All of their troops cost less than ours on average and they can resurrect troops, which we can't.
ASF is tossed out the window if they have multiple corpse carts, since most of our ASF troops have great weapons, we'll go last.
What I hate about the new book is two things. Comparing it to the HE book, you can tell someone spent a lot of time to make the VC book really good, with lots of new and inventive ways to use the army. Someone spent about 5minutes putting the HE book together and pasting ASF on it. Because of the ability to totally abuse the book, it will change the way the game is played. IE. there are no balanced armies, everyone will have to go super - uber magic to even remotely stay close. Demon book looks like it will be the same way.
I see, well I have the VC book, but reading the book and actually playing the armies are two completly different things. Since noone here plays VC i made this thread for people's opinions who have played.
Comparing the magic items as well as the Vamp powers and looking at the character abilities and units should also give the impression that the high elves book is far inferior in its depth as well as ability to counter the VC book without serious list doctoring (ie. making a list to only fight VC)
I've played the VC and seen them played several times now. In the hands of a competant opponent, you have to play your best game and maybe get a little luck to beat them. Most of my games were draws or minor wins/losses. But there was always 1-2 things that if they had gone the other way, I would lost in a major-massacre loss. And these were balanced, not too crazy abusive in their build. I've seen some seriously crazy lists, that would make elves cry in their boots scared. There are just too many combinations of things in the book that can really tear apart a lot of armies.
i have fought the VC 17 times now over the last few weeks. BuckeroO's analysis is acurate. I generally take three mages, the annulian crystal and 2-3 power stones and try and blunt or shut down their magic phase with drain magic. troops wise when I am concentrating on fighting the VC I take PG (no disadvantage from asf with great wepons as the VC can always counter this) their greater save and fear realy come into its own against VC, DP multiple units at least one with the amulet of light and large blocks of spear elves for the meat grinder aginst thier large infantry blocks. RBT are generally taken out by turn 2 so they are not worth the points and eagle are effective, SM and WL are much less effective if as buckeroo states their are multiple corpse carts in their army since you will always strike last. Of the games i have fought I have lost 6, drawn 4 and won 7. However I have never won against the VC with a balanced take on all comers HE army, the armies I have used have been optimised to fight the VC. Hope this is of some help, I will post a more detailed analysis latter this week. Good luck.
Good point Esgalisil, that's what i thought but when fighting against 4 different VC armies at a small store based GW mini tournament it was the point i argued but the local GW staff ruled that if both have asf then troops with GW strike last. Since the tournament rules stated that the GW staff had the last say on rules queries i had to accept this.
I'm not surprised by this at all as in every battle I've fought I've had this same argument with new VC players but I just always show them pg43 of the HE army book which says that with the 'Speed of Asuryan' all HE's get ASF regardless of which weapon they are wielding. This it to show that they have spent the years training etc.etc so the fact that we use Great Weapons shouldn't come in to the equation.
Regardless of this though it states in the main rulebook, (sorry no book with me so no reference pg), that in the case of 2 opponents both with ASF it reverts to Initiative order. It does not state that if one has a Great Weapon they automatically go last just that Initiative is taken for who strikes 1st. This is something all armies should rejoice at not just HE's. Although I'm not sure if any other armies that can strike 1st with Great weapons.
I know that you had to listen to the GW staff at a tournament even when they are wrong, (bet you were really frustrated), but at a tournament recently at Warhammer World the staff there insisted that there wasn't even a counter argument for not striking in Initiative order as the rulebook says to.
Hope this helps but I know that this will be a disagreement that all VC players will be bemoaning for a while yet.
To say I was frustrated would be the understatement of the century, but its good to know that I am not the only person that has had the same disagreement with new and old VC players. Its page 94 of the rule book( asf), however it states on page 34 that troops armed with a weapon that strikes last during CC (eg great weapons) will always strike last where they would otherwise strike in initiative order and this was the point they quoted at the tournament.
Last edited by aenar; April 3rd, 2008 at 17:42.
well, I agree with your reasoning, but in a recent interview with alesso calvatore (however you spell his name) he stated that ASF great weapons will always go last against other ASF troops and that it would be in the forthcoming FAQ for highelves, which he was working on. In the club I play at, several others had read this same quote, so I'm stuck going last, and it sounds like the rest of the world will be going last as well, when they print the FAQ.
NOT that they need any help anyway.