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~If a mage cast Flaming Sword of Rhuin on himself and another mage cast drain magic, would the enemy have to foll the casting value of Flaming Sword of Rhuin +3? (I cant remember the casting cost of Rhuin right now...)
~Likewise with Flames of the Phoenix. Would the dispelling cost with powerdice be 14+?
No, dispelling an enemy Remains In Play spell using power dice during your own turn only requires that you equal the basic casting value of the spell. Drain Magic only affects the casting of new spells, and thus would not be applicable.
Actually you are wrong ga1661, it raises the casting values of the spells until the beginning of the next turn.
"The casting values of all spells are raised by 3, wheter cast by friend or foe." - From the High elves armybook page 46 (drain magic spell)
"Note that the player only needs to beat the casting value of the spell in question - he does not need to beat the original casting score." - Warhammer rulebook page 110 "Dispel spells in play".
The two statements refer to the same thing; casting value.
That makes no sense, and will certainly be errata'ed to be made clear if you've correctly quoted the relevant sections. I don't have my copy of the BRB right now to confirm (on loan to a friend). However I've actually seen this question come up at an RTT multiple times and the GW staff members have consistently said that Drain Magic does not have this effect. The intent of the rule regarding using power dice to remove RIP spells is that you need to beat the base casting value without modifiers, which is why you don't get the advantage of the +1 to dispel from using a High Elf mage's army rule when you attempt to remove an RIP spell in this fashion, nor could you use a Powerstone to generate extra dice to do so. Whether or not the rule is good or not is an entirely different question... but I have to respectfully disagree with your conclusion, Danari.
Frankly I don't understand where you see these "basic" or "unmodified" values, I have never seen them and they are not in the errata.
As for your point about using power dice to dispel, it's exactly the same as using dispel dice. Which means that the +1 dispel for high elves does apply. I could be wrong about this but I see nothing indicating otherwise, this is however irrelevant to our discussion.
The point of my two quotes (which are to the letter) is that there is no mention of "base values" and that drain magic raises the casting value. There is not one use of "basic" or "unmodified" in a dispelling (or casting for that matter) context in the magic section of the rulebook.
To me this is clear as day, if you truly have seen this metioned by an offical source then please enlighten me with a link.
If I had a link from any "official source" or something else to quote from other than what I already said, don't you think I would have used it?
My point was that multiple GW staff members at multiple RTTs had ruled in a particular fashion. They might be wrong, but as far as the game is concerned, staff members judging a tournament override anything in the BRB or army books or whatever other source you can think of, since they represent GW, and are the final voice of authority at tournaments.
The way it was explained to me is that dispelling an RIP in your own magic phase uses "power dice, not dispel dice, so you gain no advantages which you would get from attempting to dispel a spell, but that you need only roll equal to the basic casting value of the spell without modification, and Drain Magic does not effect the casting value of spells which are already in play, only new spells which are cast before the player's next magic phase."
It's irrelevant whether or not I agree (but FYI, I think Drain Magic should affect RIPs), just making the point that I've been consistently told this is how it works. My point about the errata was that since I assume GW staff members are the final authority, when GW finally does issue errata (they are notoriously slow about this and are very behind... the HE book is not the only recently released army book that needs clarifications due to poor word usage), they will either fix Drain Magic or they will clarify that it does work as you describe.
I'm not trying to be argumentative or rude about this, and if I have, I apologize. I'm just pointing out that not everyone has come to the same conclusion.
- See page 110. ''use as Dispel dice, and Power dice not used to cast spells''. I.e Pd become Dd... so there goes the GW staffs argument. See? They know very little.
I don't at all disagree that they might be wrong... in fact, I'm very open to that possibility... but when the staff member makes a ruling, what else are you going to do? I'd be far more inclined to take your position except for the fact that multiple different staff members have all said the same thing. This leads me to believe that either: A) there is an inconsistency which should be addressed by errata; or the staff members could actually be right, despite whatever the books say. Believe me, I'd much rather that it was A, but given GW's track record with promptly issuing errata, I'd say B was more likely until I see a staff member take your position (which would make me very very happy as a HE player, makes Drain Magic a lot better).
Well I don't really care for the staff, but I'm not at stores that often either so I shouldn't judge... But the way I see it nothing but the errata can really be trusted; a few years back me and my friends emailed the "roolz boyz" (and this is/was the official "help-with-rules" dudes) or whatever they're called asking something about terminators (40k) invulnerable save.
I don't remember the exact details but the reply I got from the staff was that they didn't get one (contradicting some white dwarf rule as I interpreted it). Anyway we accepted this and moved on.... Then another guy from my "group" mailed the same question and got the opposite answer.
Later this was adressed in the White dwarf aswell.
I feel I have to say that the rules are often not that clear. Although it has gotten better as newer editions is released there's still some bad phrasing, Comet of Cassandora is the biggest one I can think off. The errata FAQ states that it ends on the turn that it strikes, the spell description says no such thing, in fact to me it looks like the opposite.
Anyway, I do understand you standing with what the staff tells you ga1661, I'm just on the other side of the fence; they can't be trusted
Of course, as you say, this won't help none at tournaments.
Also, I have not taken offense. I am simply defending my point of view.
As for my "challenge" with the link request. I wasn't sure what the abberviations you used meant, and therefore I thought that it might be some online statement involved. I didn't mean for you to take offense either, but being arguementative is in my humble opinion not a bad thing. If I came of as rude I want to apologize, I am quite forceful when I debate something and rarely stay my "tongue".
Last edited by Danari; April 15th, 2008 at 15:08. Reason: Spelling error