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So now that the cries of overpowering ASF and 6 special slots have died down somewhat, how are you fellow Elven generals finding the new book? Getting lots of success or still a bit disappointed? There was a thread in the VC forum seeking people's W/D/L record from the new book, and it seems most of them are finding lots of victories, I thought it would be interesting to see what people think of the 7th ed HE now that we have got used to them.
I have quite a lot of points to make, but I will reserve them until I see a few opinions. I am a bit disappointed with our book though, and finding it quite hard to win with still and even going a bit worse than I was starting to with the 6th ed one. And very few of our models really got an update, I think we could have used more.
Could do with tweaks to:
1) Silver Helms, much as I am a fan of them , I can't seem to argue that they are viable, so they need to be improved :-)
2) I'd like one more core choice, either Shadow Warriors or Reaver Knights.
3) I'd be happy to see the ability to upgrade Repeater Bolt Throwers, though not sure how just yet...
Phoenix guard, swordsmasters, white lions, dragon princes and spearmen are greatly improved.
The extra number of special and rare choices gives alot more choice to the armies.
It's a generally well balanced list that I think will do well in tournaments
Dragons in <1000pt games!!
ASF GW character overpowering any other setup
Games-Workshop say HE magic items get a 20-30% decrease in points, I can see a reduction in the enchanted shield and talisman of protection, (woo?)made pointless by ASF GW setup, except if mounted.
The only items I think are good (armour of caledor, has variations in VC and O&G for the same points and helm of fortune, good for mounted characters) aren't really that special for GW to think its a strength of high elves.totally, need optional barding as has been said by a few people around LO1) Silver Helms, much as I am a fan of them , I can't seem to argue that they are viable, so they need to be improved :-)i agree, maybe should make them S5 or D6+2 shots? or even just lowering the points cost.3) I'd be happy to see the ability to upgrade Repeater Bolt Throwers, though not sure how just yet...
Anything that shoots in the HE army generally is a bit poor. Archers for example, bretonnians get basically the same but nearly half the price for one less BS, defense vs cav and the option to skirmish.
I'm not happy with the fast cav either, reavers are good but for what they are, they are far too expensive.
That said, every army has stuff to moan about. If you want to win, you play to your strengths and it only matters about a few good units. If you have a fluffy themed list, you can use the not so good units and it doesn't matter as much about winning.
Overall, I'm happy with the list, it works well and the problems aren't really that major.
Last edited by Calenavarion; June 5th, 2008 at 17:21. Reason: spelling
In spite of all the criticism I've made in the past two months on various topics related to the new book, ranging in issues from Silver Helms to my recent post on the RBT, I have to admit that aside from one major mistake, 7th Edition HE are actually a fairly good book. You can play a lot of different types of lists, and most of them are fairly competitive in friendly games. Our infantry has vastly improved over 6th Edition, I think our selection of magic items is fairly decent, and if you had a vote among all WFB players as to the most improved unit going from 6th Edition books to their 7th Edition counterparts, I find it hard to believe that an unbiased group would not pick Dragon Princes.
There are problems with the book, I don't think anyone would claim it is perfect. Otherwise you'd be seeing a mass exodus of players flooding the stores with orders for new HE models, and that clearly isn't happening. Silver Helms, Archers, RBTs, and to a lesser extent, Shadow Warriors and Archmages have game balance or points issues that could be improved upon. But the biggest problem with the new book is Speed of Asuryan, aka ASF, which one could argue to be the biggest design mistake in the history of WFB.
I wouldn't necessarily go that far, but I've heard compelling arguments that suggest the idea has merit. The problem with adding any army-wide rule to a book like the HE is that even before you add it, the points cost per model is already assuring that the HE player is going to be significantly outnumbered in most fights. When you have to add in consideration for a special ability, especially one as valuable to a defensive force as ASF, point costs are going to sky-rocket, exacerbating an already serious disadvantage. It's very difficult to win consistently when the easiest ways to generate CR involve simply having more troops than your opponent (more rank bonuses, double-teams front & flank, bonus for outnumbering, fear-causers and auto-breaks), and you are out-manned by as much as 2 to 1, or even 3 to 1, in almost every battle.
Let's take a quick look at various troop types, given that you pay 4 points for the basic elf stat-line with no abilities, and use the standard point estimations for equipment, and see how much HE are paying for ASF and any other special abilities they might have:
Spearmen: 2.5 points for Citizen Levy + ASF
Archers: 2 points for ASF
Seaguard: 2 points for Citizen Levy + ASF
Silver Helms: 3 points for ASF (Which they really shouldn't need, they are cavalry! They should not be getting charged; they need to be charging and get their lance bonuses if they are going to be in combat!)
Dragon Princes: 8 points for ASF + stat-line increases (again, cavalry)
Ellyrian Reavers: 3 points for ASF + fast-cav abilities (again, cavalry)
Shadow Warriors: 6 points for ASF + Nagarythe Hatred + Scouts
Tiranoc and Lion Chariots: These are difficult to calculate exactly without revealing exact point costs (prohibited by the TOS), but my best estimate is that crew on each of these are paying approximately 3 to 5 points per crew/member for their ASF, which much like cavalry, shouldn't be needed at all, since chariots that aren't charging = terrible.
White Lions: 4 points for ASF + improved stat-line
Swordmasters: 4 points for ASF + improved stat-line
Phoenix Guard: 5 points for ASF + ward save + minor stat-line upgrades
RBT: If these were priced appropriately, relative to other war machines, it looks like the crew is paying 1 to 2 points each for ASF, but it's kinda hard to tell because the machine is vastly overcosted for the multi-shot ability.
Overall, it averages out that HE are paying approximately an additional 3.29 points per model for the ASF ability in a typical 2k list. Now whether or not that's a fair cost is certainly up for debate, and I don't think 2 points a model is terribly unreasonable. Except for the fact that half the army shouldn't need the ability at all, but they end up paying for it anyway!
Now that being said, I'm not sure that there is any army-wide rule that would be appropriate for the entire list... but I would have been plenty happy with just making individual point tweaks here and there, giving the ability to maybe one or two units, and giving more specialized attention to individual units across the board. This is a disease that GW developed when they discovered how well done the LM book ended up with cold-blooded, and how good the TK and VC books did with their army-wide Undead rules. They figured that if an army-wide rule works well for these armies, it should work well in every army.
I need to consider for a bit, but I'll probably post again later with some details as to what minor fixes they could make to Silver Helms, Archers, RBTs, Shadow Warriors, and Archmages (relative to Teclis), that would make the book better. I might also have a solution to the ASF issue, but no promises on that front.
Last edited by ga1661; June 6th, 2008 at 04:21.
hate to be so negative, but I hate the book. I prefer 6th edition (mainly because that's what I started with and don't know any other) ASF is stupid, the book looks like someone spent 20 minutes writing it. The Magic Items selections are horrible, usually overpriced, not worth the points or so situational that they shouldn't be taken by a balanced player. The star dragon is totally unnecessary and the new units are not worth taking either. GW's trend of making books unbalanced to too easy to be abused has ruined the game for me. I'm seriously thinking about getting out of fantasy because the books are so terrible. It's not just the HE book, but what it has set up for the books to come. O&G and Empire were balanced, normal books (yeah, they had a few kinks, but nothing too terrible. You could always ignore the special "named" characters like we did in 6th)
The HE book was done sloppy, it didnt address any of the problems from the 6th edition, because basically they cut and paste the 6th edition items into the 7th book and slapped some crappy rules on us. Because they put the stupid Dragon King (stardragon) and ASF in our book, instead of actually spending the time to write decent rules for us and perhaps playtest them, the Vampire book got all the time and effort put into and got too powerful. The Deamon book is a joke and anyone who plays with it should be strung up and shot. That's quite possibly the worst gamebook ever written. But it all started with poor thought and sloppy execution of the HE book. WHFB is not about 1 500-700pt character that can decimate everyone else. It's about a full army in which each unit plays a different roll and balancing strengths and weaknesses against the enemies'.
I feel the book is good but could have done with abit more thought, as everyone has mentioned sliverhelms. I felt ASF had balanced the army until the new books stared to come out. Seems most now have the ability/unit to ASF. This i have felt has made the swordmasters apart from there attacking abilty worse as aleast in 6th they striked as having normal weapons now they strike last. I agree with buckero0 with reguards to the uber heros i thought the whole point was to stear away from that direction with the 6th and 7th edtion rule books seams to be hero hammer all over again.
One thing i have to disagree with that seems quite a popular opinion is concerning the Bolt thrower costs. For what they can do, you get them at a pretty fair cost. Given the Single and Multi shot option, this makes them great in all round lists as they can be effective against pretty much any enemy.
The Multi shot is great against Skirmishers and lightly armoured RnF (4+Sv or worse) And the Single shot can really threaten units of knights etc when aimed down their flank. And the fact you can have 2 in 2K, and still have space for 2 more or some Eagles, i think the cost is fair.
I have only had 1 game with my HE since the update, I was pleased with the result. It was a draw, but i did far better than i had done in previous games. My only gripe is silver helms as a special choice.
I know many people who were very unhappy with the 6th ed HE simply because the only way to play them was shooting. It seems the 7th ed has corrected that major problem to some degree. What exactly is it that you wanted the HE to become? Perhapse if we start their we can understand exactly the problem is, though I think there are many people who would complain no matter how good of a job GW did simply because change is scary to the inflexible.
The only honorable options left to we combatants is seppuku or semantics...which amount to the same thing really.
I like the new book, I think now HE at least have got some chances to win, not as much as people think, but at least some.
From the other hand I found it very hard to design a reasonable army. I mean, I started from 1000 points and when I put it together there was not much on the table (when I did the same with Chaos Mortals I had plenty of units and still some points left). So I tried 1500, now there was a bit more and I could at least have some reasonable magic, but still the numbers were very low and I had to cut down a lot of units to fit in 1500. Finally I thought 'the hell with that' I took a dragon mage (that ate even more points), bare minimum troops and played a fun game against Ogres.
Surprisingly HE did quite well, and it was really fun to play. I would never take an army like this to a tournament, but still I think I like that kind of play, when you are outnumbered like hell, you really have to think hard before your next move and so on.
By the way, if you think the book is bad, look at the temporary Chaos Mortals list form the last WD. It's just a joke. There is nothing, I mean NOTHING appealing about that army, there are maybe 2 or 3 ways to play them, not the endless possibilites of HE.