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ok so maybe i don't use them right but what is the deal with shaddow warriors- WE GOT HOSED! y do shades get all kinds of options includuing gw? seriously and what is the deal w/ dark riders vs reavers! y are they core for dark elves?
DR vs. reavers- maybe because you get 5 special choices at below 2k?
As for the GW thing, I suppose a bit of it is individuality. "Here I have an orc. It has the same statline as an elf, as a man and as a dwarf. Our cavalry all has the same options and our magic items all have the same effects. What a fun game"
See the point? Armies are all different. Why, as an orc player, can I not have ANY skirmishers that are similar to shade/shadow warriors?
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You can blame Speed of Asuryan for the no great weapon option. That would be broken or absurdly expensive on shadow warriors. What I don't understand is why shades got a BS increase to 5, and why their unit champion costs more than a normal shade.
Ellyrion Reavers aren't core because they are from a specific region in Ulthuan and that made troops special (or rare) in the past. Plus Dark Elves are famous for their hit and run slave raids so it fits their fluff to have a fast cavalry core.
Artificially Enhanced I see your point about the stat-lines etc, I don't know that I agree entirely. Each army plays a bit differently due to the set out of which troops are core special and rare, and the type of player they attract. Games workshop has tried too hard in recent army books (starting with High Elves IMO) to make every army totally unique and play a certain way, this causes many of the problems that people have with the current rules as it can cause a lack of balance. My friend won't play with his demons any more because they are too easy and boring, if he does play them he prefers to deploy randomly because he honestly believes they will make up for any stuff ups he makes in the first turn. This came about because GW tried to make Demons totally Unique and unlike anything seen before.
Small changes can make a big difference I am not saying I liked it but 6th Edition High Elves and Dark Elves were totally comparable points cost, stat lines even special and rare choices were similar, there were some subtle differences however and High Elves were a little bit more reliable as a result. They don't need to worry too much about uniqueness, there are already more variables than you can reliably predict and player personality will account for a lot of variation.
Sorry about the rant sometimes it helps to put things into words.
Temujin, army to army comparisons will always be annoying because you forget about special rules and GW doesn't seem to know where it is going within each new edition of the game.
Pretty much spot on Allonairre...
Shades are certainly better than Shadow warriors, but then again arguably all our standard infantry butchers the Druchii equivalents without any buffs. Phoenix guard take down Black Guard with ease, Swordmasters and White Lions both annihilate Executioners, and spears are extremely effective against Dark Elf warriors.
We both have fear-causing chariots, but the White Lion war chariot is arguably better due to a better stats on the crew (S5 at all times with ASF).
Cavalry wise, High Elves are almost certain to get the drop on any Dark Elf unit except Dark Riders, and these boys are so fragile that even our feeble archery can tear apart the units of Dark Riders. Cold One Knights are obscene, but then again, are subject to stupidity and can be outcharged by our medium and heavy cavalry units.
Their archery is arguably better, but not as long-ranged, and as for mounts we have Star Dragons, Griffons and Eagles vs. Dragons, Manticores and Dark Pegasii .
High Elf Princes strike before ANY Dark Elf character except assasins (which was the case in all prior editions anyway) and we can create a close combat monster using nothing more than a great weapon, armour of caledor and vambraces of defence (with a Talisman of Loec thrown in for good measure).
Whilst Dark ELf magic is arguably more overtly offensive, we get +1 to dispel, and can also field an offensive mage in the form of the Dragon Mage. We can also field a mage that can cast IF with a very high likelihood. Dark ELves have an excellent magical defence in the ring of Hotek, but this will mean their own mages must be outside of the protective zone, and if you kill the enemy mages who will out of necessity be away frm the battle-line, then you stand an excellent chance of dominating the magc phase (once the ring-bearer is killed)
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dude no high elf thread should ever start with we got hosed
seriously your entire army has the obsene and utterly broken ability of always striking first whats to complain about!???
in the afformentioned shades vs shadow warriors it should be noted that in cc shadow warriors will carve through the shades gw or no
the ellryions are special cuz as noted there is only one place in which they are found and it takes a long time to train one, dark steeds were brought over and subsequently let loose cuz cold ones were better and for some strange fluff reason only gw can answer they florished breeding with local creatures and are consequently found in every corner of naggaroth and due to their nature require very little training -as with alot of beasties found in the dark elves book it's a case of point towards the enemy and let it's innate nature do the rest
magic is neglibable he have always been defensivly orientated whereas de put all efferts into offense
in fact as far as a comparison between armies go theres the bottom line de are entirely offensive we charge we hack and if it aint enough we die there is no static cr or staying power in the entire list we either break through or die where we stand to that end we are royally screwed when it comes to fighting our cousins from across the sea the asf robs us of the advantage of charging and thus blunts the kills we can dish out on top even if we win combat ur stubborn means it's extremelly hard to break you anyway and again in the war of attrician it becomes asf means you retain the advantage throuhout
maybe i'm ranting abit but it's good to vent every now and then and i don't know just hereing the words "we got hosed" from a high elf sets my teeth on edge
before i go i think it should be stated that no army is inherently hosed as generalship makes the game what it is even though i seem to be dismissing the dark elves in the opposing matchups i've pulled off some victories against the ritcheous kin not many but enough to decorate my master's belt with he spearmen heads
Believe in me, even if we are torn apart our feelings will unite us that is what this post is all about.
Wow. There is a bitter person who needs to study up on beating HE's.
ASF is a stupid rule. It isn't overpowered. Broken? Maybe. It is a blanket quick fix that GW threw over the whole army, everyone was sh*t scared of it in the rumours, but as it turns out in practice it really isn't as powerful as it seems. Remember, while we have ASF, DE are blessed with eternal hatred which I have found very devastating to my army. And if I am not mistaken, eternal hatred extends to mounts (ASF doesn't), has anyone else ever faced an eternal hatred black dragon? I can tell you there is little it can't kill. And don't get me started on assassins, they are stupidly powerful for what they cost. But I'm not here to rant about DE, I have an average win/loss ratio against them, and my battles with them are always very very bloody and great fun.
It is right that reavers are special, for all the mentioned rules. They are a more elite troop and should never form the core of a HE army. What I think is stupid is that silver helms got moved to special, they aren't very useful at all in special and cannot compare to dragon princes. We should have helms in core as our mounted core choice.
Don't worry about shadow warriors vs shades. Shades are better, keep the shadow warriors away from them or even leave them at home. The shooting is weak, and eagles and reavers do the same jobs better.
Shadow warriors are one of those odd spuds - that Nagarythe hatred could be very handy vs. DE. Any time I was going to face up against DE - I have to say I would probably load up more on shadow warriors than my typical 5 man SW/Eagle tag team.
Heck, I might even take Alith Anar just for the flavour and the panic causing goodness.
Reavers on the other hand are an odd fish - I've got 10 as yet unpainted (for several years no less) and have never fielded them. Admittedly I haven't played that much with the newer rules, and in the old I used to just stack up on silver helms due to the old cost/rare slot needed for DPs. Perhaps I should give them a go at some point...
My 20 silver helm models nowadays just don't see the table. Their move to special and the relative cost to DPs means that they will likely not see use again outside veeery rare situations. DPs are just better given the straight choice as it is now.
Meanwhile, Shadow Warriors are a common sight in my list. They don't have GWs... but you can't have /everything/, and how many skirmishers did you ever hear of slinking quietly through bushes with honking great zweihanders? They do get some nice rules, ASF, and it's not as if we don't have 2 other fantastic special units that /do/ have GWs, ASF and very nice special rules or statlines to go with.
If you want the real reason, (in my opinion of course) it's because the High Elf book was hastily slapped together with little thought, rhyme or reason. The Dark Elf book is superior in every way. Because of the imagination and thought placed behind the DE book (which was present before hand as well) you get a better, more customizable army that is loads more fun to play.
The HE book for the last 2 editions at least, is synonomous with boring, one trick pony armies. The magic items are terrible, the rules are terrible, there are several examples of blatant bigotry (against the good pointy ears) for example, "let's see, everybody likes to play cavalry heavy HE, we'll change the army so there is no way possible to play an all cav army even though those are the models we sell and push, oh and evey other army we release before and after this will have the option to field an all-cavalry army."
On the bright side, the high elves have benefitted from the most released, and some of the best released plastic miniature kits outside of the Empire and maybe the orcs & goblins.
Even more than ASF, I think the compulsory dragon is the most annoying "fix" that GW put into the army. I haven't been able to play this army for the last 7-8 months due to my distaste for the army, but if I ever do, it will probably be in a similar fashion to 6th edition. I'll play the army I like (no broken dragons!) with acknowledgement that my troops are overpriced and insufficient in skill and when I win, it will be with the pleasure and knowledge that I won with superior generalmanship (or poor dice rolling on my opponent's side) since the book and army are clearly at a disadvantage.
Congrats! You've managed to give yourself a mental win no matter what! If only everyone could be so noble not to use that cheap, broken unit (the agony of it all!) It's also good to know that any loss will because the other army has an advantage, and that all your wins are due to 'generalmanship'.
I am not disagreeing with the majority of what you say. However, the overall anger in the post leaves much to be desired. If people think that their army is so terrible, then they need to trade in their army for one that they feel they can do better with.
Last edited by daelrog; January 26th, 2009 at 02:19. Reason: sp
I am heading off to the Peace Corps. It is bery likely I will not be back. Good luck to all of you endeavors.