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hey guys im having trouble coming up with a list that would be good against VC. He either plays the blood knight unit that costs like 1200 points but very rarely. That ones easy I just take teclis and spam beast cowers or spirit of the forge but lately he plays 2 black coaches and has like 16 power dice and bound spells how do you counter something like that?
How many points are you playing? 16 power dice, with bound spells afterwards sounds very cheese to me ;P
The sheer volume of power dice would tend to indicate that he has a lot of IoN planned, so his army isn't probably overly-strong - best thing here is probably a close combat orientated force with a significant element of fast units like Silver Helms, Dragon Princes and other fast units.
Two Black Coachs could be problematic - I would go for a Dragon, Lord with Starlance or chariots of your own to get the impact hits it on the Black Coaches first...rememebr that the Black Coach cannot marchm but beware when it starts flying!
Your own characters should be mainly lvl 1 wizards with dispel scrolls, take a few protective banners and don't rely on getting off many spells, as you are unlikely to be able to match his pool of dispel dice.
Don;t skimp on leadership either - take a Prince, as the Ld 10 is all-important when facing off against the evil undead - it makes you isgnificantly less likely to flee on those marginal combats. A core of Phoenix Guard is good for stymying any Vampire led units, and lead by Korhil, they should be able to wreak havoc and test on stubborn LD 9 or better.
for some reason my friend likes playing cheesy armies, He loves special characters too, he hasnt played a game without one. He kinda uses it as a handicap I guess thinking he will lose if he doesnt play one which is true since the last time I forced him to not use any (trying not to be cocky) he got smoked lol. Its really hard trying to get him to play a fair game of warhammer. Anyways we play games of 2000 or 2250 depending and I was trying to come up with a cheese list of my own using teclis and 2 maybe 3 other mages with staff of sorcery (+2 to dispel should really help vs all that single dice casting and bound items hopefully forcing him to use 2 dice for it) and annulian crystal. Trying to crank out as many dispel dice as possible I would get 9-11 dispel dice and that was factoring in stealing one of his with a +2 to dispel vs 15 power dice with bound items. If I spam drain magic with teclis or take high magic with the other mages that should balance that out hopefully but lately hes been wanting to try out 2 black coaches so he can have all his mages near the coaches absorbing some dice to get those cool little effects. Plus he knows that I know how to counter his massive 1200 pt blood knight unit/army. But I dont know how to counter him from using 2 coaches does anyone have any ideas?
A few spaces would make it easier to read...
Anyways, theBlack Coaches are not that hard to be honest. S7 hits from a Star Dragon or Star Lance will kill them well enough. Similalry, S6 bolt thrower shots or even Bow of the Sefarer will be good enough to wipe them out after 1-2 turns of shooting.
As for his Vampries - heavy magic users as stated = plans to use IoN unceasingly.
You can deal with these guys more equally as they will generally be weaker when it comes to combat as they will probably have none of the "combat" bloodline powers.
When you charge, aim as many attacks at the Vampires as possible, they are suprisingly squishy against high strengt attacks like HE elites can dish out.
His main blocks of units will be small-ish, so getting to them early will force his hand - if you can kill 5-10 models each turn per infantry unit, and win combat by 3+, then he will see his units crumble very quickly. Swordmasters are excellent for this role, as are DPs..
My backbone would be:
1 Prince on Star Dragon with Star lance
2 level 1 mage scroll caddies
BSB on horse with Reaver Bow, lance, shield etc
2 x 12 Silver Helms with High Helms + standards (high Unit strength), no shields
2 x 6 Dragon Princes with standard and Drakemaster
1 x 20 Phoenix Guard
1 x 10 Swordmasters with Bladelord and talisman of light
The rest I would make up in terms of Repeater Bolt Throwers, spear elves and Great Eagles
i totally agree with you Kithre, you need some hard hitters to get rid of his vamps. If you can get rid of the dice hes throwing around, you'll notice that he will be much weaker. It looks like he focused on raising the dead more then anything
that does seem like a good idea, but the problem is I dont have any dragons and the stuff I bought for HE awhile back was planned for a more infantry based army.
4 bolt throwers
10 shadow warriors
20 PG w/ full command
20 swordmasters w/ full command
5 white lions w/ full command
24 spearmen/seaguard w/ full command
1 bsb on foot
3 nobles on foot
1 noble on horse
1 mage on horse
2 mage on foot
Ok, so I would have to say a different tactic.
Take 3 bolt throwers and 1 eagle. The Eagle is to pick on lone characters/necromancers, harass and prevent marching.
Take the full unit of PG, with standard of sorcery
Take two units of the swordmasters - 7 each, bladelords only. Give 1 Blade Lord amulet of light
Take all 24 Sea Guard - give them the Lion Standard
Take the Shadow Warriors - 2x units of 5 each to pick on small units, harass and prevent marching
Take a small unit of 10 archers to fulfil your quota
Then for characters
BSB - give the BSB Great weapon, Armour of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix
Teclis (use him to cast with all your dice)
2 x support mage scroll caddies
As a VC player, i agree with Kithre. my army gets murdered horribly by those dumb bolt throwers, fielding 3 of them forces what magic i have to keep pumping out guys to refuel my squads, this allows your units to be safe from my offensive spells. Also fielding 1, maybe 2 mages purly for Scrolls, with some Swordmasters and those Dragon princes is a deadly combat.
First turn-Shoot the crap out of us, March your army towards us. During are turn dispell everything, dont let anything get back up
second Turn- Shoot and charge, with 2 turns of bolt thrower bolts, and shutting out the magic for 1 whole turns puts the game in your units hands, and as i know high elf's, your stats are far superior to those of my poor undead. Hit hard 2nd and 3rd turn and dont let anything get back up, id even advise using your dispell dice to stop small zombie squads from forming.
Remember your victory is assured by turn 3 or 4 if you aim for our general and due to your atleas 4 Dispell dice and 4 scrolls just from 2 mages, our army should be beating up enough for the rest of your army to come in and flank us.
Best of luck, hope this helps
Disclaimer; this is based on theory not actual practical experience.
The way I see it controlling the Vampire counts Raising dead and resurecting is going to be the key to controlling this game. this means controlling their magic phases and killing more guys than he can raise.
The biggest weakness I see for vampire mages, correct me if I am wrong is the level of the caster.
Necromancers are only ever Level 1, Vampires can only get to Level 2 through a 30 pt vampiric power meaning he can't be a master of the black arts as well.
Vampire Lords can get to L4, but there can only be one of those.
This means that Necromancers (and most vampires) can only use 2 dice to cast with, so even Invocation of Nehek is shut down with 1 or 2 castings of drain magic, and good vampires can use 3 dice to cast with but are only generating 2.
Most of the bound spells aren't a huge threat except for the Vanhels one, remember that only a vampire will strike before any of your troops because of our good initiative, even if he uses corpse carts lots.
I would combine this with taking Annulian Crystal. L1 with the crystal and a L1 caddy + Teclis and drain magic should be able to control their magic.
Combined with this I can't see many ways for the vampires to defend against magic at first glance they only get normal dispel dice, so you are looking at 7 dispel dice at most, (ok that is a lot of dice). Teclis should be able to work through this though.
I know it is negative but is Banner of Sorcery worth it against 2 Black Coaches, remembering that it adds to your pool dice which the black coaches then get to attempt to steal slowing their improvement down has to help doesn't it. It is probably a 50/50 call though.
Again this is just in theory but it would give you 7 to 9 dispel dice and 3 scrolls, with another character slot still to spare for BSB (w/ radiant gem if you are paranoid about magic).