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What are the arguments for taking one over the other? I see the benefits for both. The points for DPs seems like an awesome deal but then again so do the SHs. Yes, SHs are 7 points less per model (with shields) but they have only 1 attack instead of 2, 1 less WS, one less I, one less LD, and one less SV. The one thing that makes me really like Silverhelms is that, they are 23 points, upgraded with shields; its around 2.5 spearmen for a really heavy hitting heavy cav. Any thoughts?
they are great for smaller games, anyone that takes dragon princes in a game under 1000 points has a serious point sink.
If a Million Guardsmen die, that's a statistic. If one marine dies, that's a tragedy.
I dunno. A Dragon Princes regiment of 6 models can churn out an insane number of attacks for a narrow frontage. ARguably these guys are MORE effective as they can decimate an enemy infantry unit with far superior WS, attacks and a higher LD which negates the need for the general being nearby.
Silver Helms are good for tight points if you must have a cavalry unit, or need the extra wounds, but if you can afford 6 Dragon Princes I would always opt for these boys.
What do you think about SHs in larger games? I was thinking about taking a 6 man unit of DPs and a 10 man unit of SHs; maybe 9 with a hero with a BSB.
Gods, I think I'm going to petition them to sticky this thread! It keeps popping up about every other month. We've got a search feature on the site guys, please- use it. But, since you asked, I went through and located all of the old threads, and my replies. So here you go:from: Silver Helms v Dragon PrincesThere's a psychological benefit to fielding DPs. They tend to attract lots of enemy attention, even though they are only slightly better than your regular cavalry. And you're right, putting them in there with a prince is a great idea. Not only is it very fluffy, but it also lets some of those tasty banners affect the prince. The magical weapons on the champion don't really help too much. I'd much rather give him a +2St lance on the charge, than a +1attack at S3, or constant S4 attacks. The latter options are for prolonged fighting. Prolonged fighting is bad for elf cav.from: Silver Helms vs Dragon PrincesDragon Princes- expensive, line breaking cavalry for taking on medium-armored opponents with a low static CR.
Silver Helms- cheaper, flanking unit or equal cost line-breaker if used in units 10 with a banner, and thrown against heavier opponents or those with high static CRs.from: Why Use Silver Helms? (why use silver helms?)Here's the thing: DPs are the best all rounders, without a doubt. They generally give the highest returns for the lowest cost. However, I have found Silvers to be quite good in some spots.
1) low points: if you need cavalry, sometimes you have to question whether you really need to be immune to fire or get 2 attacks each. Command is also more expensive in a DP unit.
2) Combat Resolution: This is just for comparison purposes. For a few points more than a 6man unit of Dragon Princes, you can get 10 silver helms. Formed into two ranks, and with a US of 20, you're looking generating more "static" CR. That's points without kills. I did a little mathhammer against a T4 opponent, and rounded up, but the 6 DPs will only average 1or 2 more kills than the Silvers anyways. The trouble is, if you lose 3 DPs, the enemy gets 1/2 points. If you lose 1 DP, you are down 2 attacks. You have to lose 5 silvers before you begin to really feel it. The trick is simple: 6DPs against units that you know you can take down, because they're cheaper. But against an army like VC or Dwarves, it's usually Silver Helms all the way. If you can clear about 26 points/unit in your army, you might want to consider keeping the silvers. Take a look at my math below:
10 Silvers + standardbearer + warbanner = 246pts
~~rank + outnumber + standard + warbanner + 2 wounds = 6CR (4 static)
6 Dragon Princes + standard bearer + warbanner = 220pts
~~standard + warbanner + 3 wounds = 5CR (2 static)
You can also look at the Cavalry tactica that I wrote. It focuses on each of our cavalry choices, and obviously the Silver Helms and Dragon Princes feature heavily. You can find the original tactica
HERE (Another Tactica DRAFT. Cavalry oriented lists)
or as part of Vase's excellent High Elf tactica, in the tactica section
I hope that that will clear this question up until April at the least.
Sorry about that. I did try the search function and must have screwed something up and missed it. Thanks for the info! I am beginning to like SHs more that I used to. I really like how the models look and I was hoping there were good arguments for using them and now I have some good info!
Lol - this one is a bit of a raw nerve for the ol' capt
there are some times that people (just humans in general- no specific user) feel compelled to keep...asking...the same... question.
After working with LO's Armybuilder for a while, I got tired of people always asking "what's the most competitive list for xxarmy?"
I've pretty much started ignoring all of the "I'm new to xx, help me"
There are so many places you can go on this fine site to go and get answers. And so many fine people here to give them to you. I feel old. I've been playing this army too long to have to keep repeating myself.
A couple things:
First and MOST importantly, I respect CaptainSarathai's opinions a lot. However, I disagree with him (and I realize that I am in the gross minority here) that if people can find answers to their questions using the search function then they should not post their questions in a forum. I think it is ok to still ask the questions.
Even if a question has come up multiple times (like this one), having the discussion again can create new thoughts and generate new ideas, strategies, styles of play, etc. because different people will be participating in the discussion. For you oldies like CaptainSarathai, that might seem annoying. But in my opinion, letting newer members of the forum participate in an old discussion could potentially change how the discussion resolves and therefore it would be worth having the discussion again.
Anyway, with regards to HE cavalry:
I can pretty much justify not using DP at all. Their superior WS does little. Against an opponent with an average WS, they won't be receiving any advantage because they will need the same roll to hit. 2 attacks? Why not just use SM? High Strength? Why not use WL who will have high strength for more than just the first round of combat? Speed? Silver Helms. Not to mention, chariots have a combination of all those things and are much more maneuverable. In other words, everything DPs offer I can get somewhere else (except very small things like Dragon Armour and high LD, which could frequently have ZERO impact on the game). Obviously it won't be the same (I can't use SM the same way I would DP), but I'm willing to make an adjustment because I'd rather have the points, and I'm not dead sold on a cavalry-based army list. DP are still just as frail and killable as Silver Helms if they don't break their opponent in the first round of combat. I can't see any reason why I would absolutely need DP to fill a particular niche in my army list. I can only see using them for visual appeal, fluff, of psychological reasons, i.e. people tend to be intimidated by them.
If you WANT to use DP for some reason other than just winning the game, then there are a whole slew of other issues that could be brought up. Just my opinions. I'm certainly open to having people disagree with them
High Elf WiP Tactica
The argument to use SM and WL is that these units can only deny 10" of ground to the enemy, and march the same distance, so cannot easly be used to manouvre strategically, unless the enemy has only brought his footsloggers. Dragon Princes have the concentration of attacks that Swordmasters bring across a range of 16".
Whilst a Dragon Prince his as hard as a Swordmaster on the charge (hold on - why pick SM when WS6 doesn't really matter ?), Dragon Princes also are less likely to get shot up by "normal shooting", and are more likely to be able to strike their intended targets - you should only suffer 2-3 rounds of shooting with elite cavalry, whereas your SM will have to be screened by other units if you are facing any volume of S4+ firepower. Dragon Pricnes are soo good they are pretty threatening as well, so can actually be used as a form of psychological warfare. Especially if sitting near a wood or marsh, with the banner of Ellyrion!
Chariots are pretty economical, but cannot march, and have a lower armour save and are a lot less resilient than 2.5 Dragon Princes...
Princes are AS fast as Silver Helms, Silver Helms without shields are less resilient, but about 30% cheaper than DPs. However they also need a pip of extra Ld handy (general/hero etc) as otherwise they are just citizen soldier Elves on horses, and also cannot carry a magic banner or magic items on the champion.
Silver Helms are at best good medium cavalry. WS4 and S5 on the charge is good in most armies. But for the points cost (more than the 1+ save Empire Knights) and compared to what they are competing with in the Specials slot, they probably don't cut it. If they were non-compulsory core, then I would love them far more, and as everyone by now knows - I have 60 of the blighters, mainly metal, so no converting into Dragon Princes for me :-S
I still pick Silver Helms, and in BIG units, more to intimidate the foes than for particular battelfield use. And a line of 12 SH snaking round enemy formations to reform and threaten their flanks with a US 24 cavalry unit is nice....
Last edited by kithre; March 2nd, 2009 at 19:57.