Welcome to Librarium Online!
What purpose do elyyrion reavers serve really? The only things i thought they could be used for is screens and maybe the occasional march block or flank charge, so what do you guys use yours for????
Read Brock's article in the Tactica http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...ml#post1434481, it basically says exactly what you are saying.
They are fast mobile warmachine hunters, they can march block, but eagles better at both really.
They don't shoot that well, 5 bows not really worth it.
However we often have special slots to burn at 2000 pts, and for ** pts they are a great addition to 3 bolt throwers and 1 eagle. I feel like you should always include at least 2 faster disruptive elements in an army for flexibility, redirection, warmachines etc and this fills one of those positions well.
You and Brock (in tactica) are right though that in many cases there are units that are better suited to the role, making reavers a bit redundant. I like mine because they are new for me and Fast Cavalry are pretty fun.
Coming from a Skaven Player, Reaver Knights (as I usually called them) were a foe to be reconed with.
One time I went up against a High Elf player in a "open settting"(ie, he did not know whom he was going to be fighting and his list had to be a take-on-any opponent), I was not worried at all about his flank attempt against my Skaven with his Silver Helms or Dragon Princes, because I had ways to counter them rather easily and effectively.
When he and I went against each other KNOWING what we were bringing (Ie, he and I knew it was Skaven vs HE), again, while he did better, my Skaven were able to prevail against him, and his Dragon princes did not do well in the Flanking manuever he tried.
But when he reconfigured and did his research and REALIZED that he did not need (in 5th edition play) a 45 points/per DragonPrince model when a 27 point Reaver (or whatever their price was) woudl still outclass even my best troops....once he realized that and sent a unit of about 16 of them......to say my troops crumbled against them would be an understatement.
And word got out....whenever I played any HE player that knew they were going up against my Skaven, they had a good unit of Reaver Knights. The Dark Elf palyer started using more Dark Riders. Empire started bring Kislev horse Archers......etc, etc.
So to answer your question properly, you want to use Reaver Knights if you are going against T3 opponents, that are 3 WS, lightly armored (+5 save at most). Against the Skaven, Empire, goblin-dominant, stuff like that, where they are still superior troops to them. You use their abillities to get on their flank, to fire hard, and stay close enough to stop their march moves. And when it comes time to clash, you reform them from Skirmish mode to ranks before you charge in the flanks or better, the reard.
Took me some time to figure out a proper counter.
Reavers no longer skirmish but I know what you mean, and it is still valid. against WS3, T3 S3, Reavers are as good as silverhelms on the flank, better though because they get there sooner.
Well, I have not upgraded to the current edition of WH.
In 5th Edition Warhammer (assuming that is the one from the mid 90's to early 2K that I played) Reaver Knights were a major bane to the Skaven, even more so then many of their other troops.
To my knowledge, even in the edition that you played, reavers didn't skirmish. I understand what you're saying though- switching from a long line to ranks. There is one thing that reavers can do (accidentaly really) better than an eagle:
Eagles are KNOWN to be our clippers and redirectors. Reavers are a totally different story- they're a high value unit who can draw lots of attention by annoying people with shooting attacks (to be read: if this will be their role, SWAP spears for bows). If you toss in a musician, then you're golden. The will flee, rally at +1ld, maybe even use the General+BsB, and then turn around and keep fighting.
Eagles on the other hand, tend to just book it. They break, run, and are likely to keep running. And they sit still on the rally.
Additionally, the Reavers make good flankers. Understandably, you want to run a hard hitting regiment like Dragon Prince. In a bind, you can spare the points are run the Silver's. But if this unit is operating on the flank of say... Swordmasters with a Warbanner, and it's main role is just to negate ranks and get the flanking bonus, then why not go for the major discount and use Reavers? With spears, they hit at 1pt less strength than the Silvers. The only difference between the two is the save. And while you may say "that will keep them alive" remember that the Reavers can reform and manuever to get into the flanks more easily, thereby saving time that they might potentially be "under the guns"
When the HE was REALLY ready for me (and thus, I learned the value of switching up my army list often), first off, in early battles, he tried using a regiment of either Dragon Princes or Silver Helms, but with the costs those incurred (don't have my 5th edition books with me, but I believe those dragon prince/silver were 45 points. Knowing they were coming in battles leading up to it, I often included 2 or 3 Jezzail Teams, which generally were there to stop such an attack and often were very effective at dropping his Knights. He switched to a unit of reavers for one battle along with the Dragon Princes probably to double up over there. But i think he realized in that battle (and I do believe that Reavers could SKIRMISH in 5th edition I may be mistaken) but I think at some point he did the match and realized that his advantages of DragonPrinces going for our flank were not worth the cost, while the Reavers were.
So when he realized that, and instead of coming at me with 8 Reavers and 8 DragonPrinces, he came with 16 Reaver Knights.......
His Reaver's took their free march move to start the battle off. I had initiative, and he was already blocking us from marching. I fired my Jezzails at him, but with skirmishing, I might have dropped one and realized the extra -1 penalty to hit him was already paying off. However, I did have my Rat Ogres holding that side of my line (and truth was, they were expendable as the lynchpin of my army at that time was 2 regiments of 50 clanrats) so I had them charge. the Reavers fired and fled, and while they outran the ogres, the Ogres were now well within range of Repeating Bold Throwers.
Reavers regroup, from skirmish formation now into a 6-front rank. His RBT now are at short range on my Rat Ogres and wipe them out with a volley from his three guns. The Reavers now remarch towards my army.
In my movement phase, as I was already taken a beating from his archers and Sea Gaurd, I rechange the direction of my Screaming Bell, imagine if it was traveling at the 12 o'clock position at the center of his line, where a HUGE unit of SeaGaurd's were at (at least 30 or so), i adjust about 45 Degree's so I am now heading away from the Reavers and more towards the flank of the sea gaurd and towardes the unit of archers he has there, and I have the Giant Rats sort of mosey over, that were my center speed bumps/screen, imagine if they stood pat and rechanged their formation to facet eh reaver Knights to become my new flank screen. But as I did this, and as the Screaming Bell and it's unit moved, I realized I had just opened myself up to a possible rear attack.
he realized it too, he made a full move right where he was taking the chance that if his archers failed to turn back the Giant Rat's, that the Giant Rats would have a rear charge on the Reavers. But it worked, his archer units wiped out the Giant Rats, and his Reavers were now looking right at the rear of my army and were going to shoot them from behind with arrows and knew he was going to wait till the Screaming bell charged the center of his line before he actually moved in, that I knew i had screwed myself. It was not a plan without merits.....had I used Storm Vermin or Plague Monks to push my Screaming Bell, they would have still probably beaten his huge unit of Lothern Sea Gaurd that were the lynchpin of his infantry efforts (everything else was in his units of archers, a unit of Shadow Elves, and his general/mage/bsb, which was maxed into anti-magic stuff as my Grey Seer was renowned for his abillity to use magic).
Essentially, my Screaming Bell and the unit of Clan Rats pushing it reached the Sea Gaurd relatively intact and while my charge was immense, and did a lot of damage, they failed to break the Sea Gaurd (which ulitmately cost me the battle, as backstopping the SeaGaurd was the White Lions with the General). He essentially charge two archer units into each flank, while the Reaver Knights charged the rear........and I think in that round, my Screaming Bell did some work and I may have even misfired with my warpfire thrower team attached to it. They wiped out the Clan Rat's, but as you are aware, in 5th edition, it was all about characters and my souped up Grey Seer was unbreakable on the Screaming Bell but still......
So, moral of the story was......
1) Reaver Knights>Clan Rats especially when they hit on the rear.
2) Reaver Knights- MUCH more cost effective then Skaven, as they were the equal to my elite troops and far superior to my regular troops in my list.
I can't remember how I remedied myself from this one......I know I did not take it too well.
I just checked the book. Reaver Knights in 5th Edition could skirmish.
Wow, you've been playing for even longer than me then. I started gaming right after the last edition of the book came out. Not the current one, but the one right before, that was all blue and had Teclis on the front of it. I still have a copy of it before they started putting that ugly red rim around it. Anyways- skirmishing reavers would have been incredible. It sounds from the situations that you post, that they were a very powerful unit. They really got nerfed last edition, and this edition they are getting kicked into the closet.
I played my first game in 5th edition, but only played a couple, it was right before 6th came out and none of my friends had particularly large Warhammer armies.
I think that skirmishing (and fire and flee) was just part of being fast cavalry, like feigned flight (the ability to move on the turn you rally if you choose to flee) in this edition.
My favourite part was flying high, on turn 1 all winged monsters would take off and fly high, they couldn't be targetted and could charge any unit on the table (in the front I think), at least that was the way I remember it. Warmachines didn't get musch of a look in, and Dragon's were amazing.