Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
My friends and I are mostly playing games at 2000 points although we are thinking about going up to 3000 for a few games.
At 2k I currently run a unit of 15 Phoenix Guard with full command along with three units of six or seven Sword Masters or White Lions (depending on what I'm going to be facing), normally just rank and file with no command.
I'm trying to figure out whether, at 3k, to put in a few more smaller units of Sword Masters and White Lions or start ranking up my existing small units and give them full command.
So, what do you guys do at that level?
At that level, I toss in an archmage, more RBTs, and buy more cavalry- but that's just because I'm a caledor player. However, when it comes to SM, there's a reason that we don't field them in huge units with commands: they don't do well.
These guys get enough CR for themselves that they really don't need many ranks. Most opponents you will find will run regiments of 20 as the maximum, because it's what's spoonfed to you by GW. Therefore, they're going to run more regiments too, and a few more elite regiments. So your SMs and WLs, who are jest flankers and meant to hack a unit down to size, should stay at 10, and you should add to them. However, you should also make your PG bigger and maybe add a unit of them- to deal with larger or more numerous elite enemies. Also remember that you gain a lord at this level, and access to a few more heroes. Now might be the time to toss in a dragon.
I find that when you look at "growth", 2K to 3K is more akin to the leap between 1.5K and 2K, than it is for a whole thousand point jump. If you want to play a truly epic battle, where you can definitely FEEL that the armies have gotten larger- play for 3.5K or 4K. Those fights are massive.
A decent unit to throw in would be a single larger unit of Sword Masters but with the banner of Ellyrion to stalk through difficult terrain and suprise the enemy.
I dont really think it would be useful to take more then 3 small units of SMs as you will end up running out of places for them to go and they'll be sitting ducks for shooting.
Chariots would be a good addition for me if I was going up to 3000, I usually only take 1 in my 2000 list but I'm still a massive fan of them (just never have the points).
Sometimes its worth increasing the numbers on White Lion units, but that very much depends what you're using them for.
Also consider that at 3000 points you are going to need a fair bit more magic defence, as most peoples second lord choice will be a level 3 or 4 wizard, so you'll need to be prepared for that.
What armies do you often face?
A unit of 15 SM with command. bring other elites up to 10 minimum and add commands. bring the PG up to 20 add RBT and if you use dragons magic defense with another caddy of 2 and if you use archmages more offense with another archmage. bump up the amount of units in general.
Daemonic cheese-how? Well, you would need to start with daemonic milk, i guess...
It's a difficult one to answer - you can do either, and both options have their merit. But just putting more blocks of infantry on the table, or tooling up your champs etc. isn't an answer in and of itself. You need to think about the focus of your army, and make use of the extra points to really make the main thrust work.
The jump to 3000 is a pretty big one - it allows you to either diversify your core 2000 pts list - by throwing in lots more magic to bolster your archmage, or by throwing in extra units to support the Dragon you've probably got.
The problem you've got is that to make a really effective magic phase, you're looking at about 1000pts in mages. Same can be said when you consider Dragon/Prince + Nobles. Teclis and the Star Dragon option don't come cheap, and to get the extra dice/backup combat units you need is well worthwhile.
Dragon Princes with an Elyrrion banner make a very good support unit for a Prince on Dragon - especially if you hand them a Noble with a star lance, and/or a BSB with battle banner. The enemy is faced with a choice: shoot your dragon, or shoot your cavalry. Turn to face either and you'll take a flank charge from one or the other... and they're mobile enough to turn an enemy flank. Once they've knocked out one unit, between them they can charge from unit to unit eating the opponent up from left to right.
The extra RBTs are pretty cheap when you think about it (in terms of the extra 1000 points you have to spend) - Eagles are very handy if you didn't already have them, and are also cheap.
There are a few options - one I've not heard much explored is to take Alith Anar and a few mobs of Shadow Warriors. He's one of those Lords that I'd not take except as a second choice (or if I knew I was fighting DE), but is a cheap option that can add alot to your skirmish line, and really hurt heavily armoured units (a really nice high BS bolt thrower that can push for flank shots).
Reavers are another cheap and quite attractive option - small units (you have plenty of specials to use up) can make the enemy fret, if you mix them with eagles and make big sweeping flank moves, you can really distract them or make them worry, whilst you focus your hard-hitting units elsewhere.
Some very good points raised in here, I don't think that there is a right answer, but this would be my opinion,
PG- Bigger the better, At 3k why not up them to 24 or 25 with command to gaurantee outnumber and auto break.
WL- A great center, if they have the bodies to last 3 to 4 rounds so 18+ with command of these is a valid unit.
SM- I just don't like these for the center of the battle line they are too fragile and prone to break after a bad round, So I would leave these as flankers even in big games, 10 to 14 max. To me a big unit of SM is still a flanking unit it just lasts through the barrage of shooting better, but that is me and I wrap SM's in cotton wool.
Cavalry still too expensive to bother with ranks, and all the arguments about banner's etc are still valid.
In terms of the step up in points, as 3k is played so rarely (by my friends) it is generally a balanced list that is fielded, ie most 2k lists I write have a strength in one or 2 of the phases. With the extra 1000 pts I try to balance the list in the 3rd phase, so I might add Alith Anar, some Shadow Warriors, Bolt Throwers and Archers to a list that focused solely on Combat and Magic. Conversely I would add an Archmage, archers, some Dragon Princes and eagles to my Alith Anar List.
It stands to reason however that overloading on one phase is an even more valid tactic as teh army you are likely to face will probably be balanced, Imagine Teclis, Archmage Book of hoeth, Banner of Sorcery, with 6 bolt Throwers, or 2 Stardragons and some Magic Defense these would be a fairly tough for a balanced list IMO not exactly fair unless you warn your opponent before hand. Tournament lists have very little place at high points levels.
At 2k my problem isn't magic defence but getting through all the dispel dice generated by 3 warrior priests and an arch lector without spending a significant number of points on magic items to generate extra power dice. (Well, that and dealing with the Arch Lector and War Altar combo itself)
I suspect that my Empire opponent would be more tempted to add in a General or Captain of the Empire (or even another $*%^&* Warrior Priest) than a Wizard of any level. I'm pretty certain my OnG opponent would also not field another wizard given how poorly the OnG magic seems to perform
If you're looking for something to take down a war alter and possibly a few O+G chariots as well then you might want to consider an angry wasp noble (Noble, great eagle, star lance, dragon armour, shield) - really does a good job at cheaply smashing up chariots.
If burning DD is your problem then try Banner of Sorcery (probably on Phoenix Guard) and Ring of Fury. Or just concentrate your army in another direction.
You're over 1000pts in magic, and you're going to suffer in combat as a result - but with plenty of bolt throwers and spears/PG in blocks, you have a very solid defensive line, and you've got to rely on the IFs from your two big mages to just ignore the enemy scrolls and dispel dice.
I'm also a big fan of the Sigil of Asuryan on an L2 mage next to teclis - two big fat chances to delete your enemies' best spells with roughly 50% chance each time.