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Sorry in advance for the long winded intro:
Ok then, a couple of months ago myself and a 2 friends decided to start fantasy as supposedly it’d more tactical than our usual games of 40k with is basically point and shoot half of the time.
Due to my love of the elegance skill and models of the High elves I fell for them instantly, unfortunately the other two still have large portions of their 40k armies unpainted and hence want to finish them before starting fantasy, so i jumped at the chance to get ahead in the game knowing i'm a slow painter. Knowing of the large amount of models needed to get a decent game of fantasy I started painting up a spearman regiment.
So overall this is my first stab at a list, but I’m not posting it in the list section because the list is merely to put a question (see below) in context.
Book of Hoeth 360
Dispel scroll 185
6 men 180 x2 360
2 RBTs: 200
24 inc fc 241 x2 482
10 inc fc 180 x2 360 + xxpts (one regiment with banner of sorcery)
Shadow warriors: (had point left over - what else could you do with 80/88 points?)
5 men 80 x 1 80
2242pts --- anything for 8pts?
The question is do we as HE have to have 3 mages tooled up to be competitive? Or can our points be spent more wisely else where? E.g. drop one of the above mages and add in a chariot and a group of shadow warriors?
Also the term magical defense… What is enough magical defense and can we be competitive using just the defensive stuff AND then make the extra units we gain pay?
Unfortunately this question is hampered by what I’ve heard to be ‘the temperamental’ nature of the magical phase.
Any advice on the list would be appreciated but mainly using the above list as an example to de really need to rely on swamping our opposition with magic (2 mages and an arch mage) or can we go middle of the road and still be competitive?
Any examples of units to replace the mage(s) would be great as well.
Sorry for the longwinded nature of the intro and post…
Any advice or replies in general would be much appreciated
Last edited by matt01price; May 17th, 2009 at 11:08.
You list looks sound to me. However, I'd knock out 2 SMs from each regiment to make units of 6 DPs. The DPs will need the help more, as they are more 'self reliant' than the SMs, who will be flanking your Spears.
As for magic, there are two things we can consider; offense and defense. Unfortunately, high elves can't do both at the same time unless perhaps we take Teclis.
If you go with defense, I'd run a Lvl3 Archmage with two supporting Lvl1's. This gives us the cheapest possible defense. Archmage takes the Staff of Sorcery (+1 to dispel attempts) and the High Lore (total of +2). One of the Lvl1's grabs the Annulian Crystal (dice theif) and the other grabs 2 scrolls. Altogether it makes a pretty decent defense, with
2+1+1+1(thief) Dispel Dice, with a +2 to dispelling attempts.
If you chose to run offense, you could go with a Lvl4 Archmage, and 2 supporting Lvl2's. The Archmage grabs the Book of Hoeth (almost better to just get teclis).
Other items to consider including are the Bound Rings, Powerstones, Jewel of Dusk, Silver Wand, Seerstaff, Starwood Staff, etc.
Also, include the Banner of Sorcery on an elite regiment. Anything that gets you more dice, gets you more castings, more powerful castings, more spells, basically anything that can let you burn through your opponent's dispel pool.
This of course gets very expensive, and leaves you with fewer points in your army.
When you start decreasing your numbers of characters, you can of course take more units. The problem is, the game leans slightly towards magic. Having magic defense or a powerful offense is good, because magic can sometimes be more effective than the handful of troops that you get in the trade off. I run a very small, very quick army of Dragon Princes. I back it with Mages, because I would rather keep people from targeting my two or three regiments of 6 DPs with spells that don't give a save. Then I can start pummelling them with return magic when the rest of my army is safe.
Thank you both for the replies both were extremly helpful
could i also ask what is this irresistable force granted by teclis and Book of Heoth?... is it worth paying 100pts for?
It's well worthwhile for any high level caster, and any battle where you're up against strong magic defence.
ok then so it's would it be worth putting that on the Arch mage and redistributing his kit onto the other mages? e.g. silver wand and the ring?
By all means, yes - there are more complete tactica on how to use your magic phase, but if you rely on Teclis as your primary caster (he can afford to miscast once a turn, he knows more spells etc.) and the rest of them as dice donors (and the Archmage as a backup caster) then you can be very effective offensively.
You load Teclis up with one lore containing a few spells you want to use, and then the archmage supports with another lore (chances are he will get the spells you want). The level 2s are there to throw in a few more dice and/or carry a few handy items.
You could even go Teclis/Archmage/Dragon Mage/Lvl 2 - but that might be overdoing it. He isn't as robust as a star dragon prince, but he does have the advantage of a massive magic offense backing him up.
This would be pushing towards 50% of your list just on heroes/magic...
correct me if i'm wrong but can't you only take one lord at 2250 (i.e. can't take both teclis and archmage) plus can magic really be that effective?... with it being half of the list you'd have to be inflicting most of the casualties with the magic wouldn't you?
Also the archmage and 2 other mages + bsb..... could you argue that this is becoming the standard magic/hero set up?
To quote Allonairre:If I want to win
Archmage, 2 mages, BSB
Stardragon, 2 mages
Some elf players seem to describe this as heavy magic... can this really be so when it's so common? could this set up be counted as medium magic and then teclis lists be heavy magic? reson being that no sucsessful high elf lists ever seem to have no/light magic.
The 2 mages with the star dragon would both be L1's for defense.
You are right though that Heavy magic has become a norm, I think that the reason for this is Medium magic, say 2 L2's + Banner of Sorcery, is just not that effective, Your magic phase will likely only consist of 3 to 4 spells, 2 low spells and 2 medium spells say Shield of Asuryan twice and drain magic (or fury of Khaine) twice, this probably requires 10 dice to be effective (2 for shield and 3 for drain magic) It might frustrate your opponent but they probably have 3 to 4 dispel dice and it won't cause them any big problems. So all but 1 of the spells is should be stopped, or not cast.
Stepping that up to heavy magic once those 3 to 4 spells have been stopped you still have an archmage to cast another 1 or 2 that are likely to get through, these can be potential gamebreakers like Vauls Unmaking, Flames of the Phoenix etc, your opponent must save dice and scrolls for these spells making the initial part of the phase more effective.
Is it worth it, I don't know, some defense is crucial, and if you are buying mages then why not make them capable offensively.
These points are not necessarily points wasted. When it come to characters I don't even consider any non-magical choice, short of a Prince on a Star Dragon, as a choice. That's because even with ASF, our pitiful S3/T3 and thin saves makes our CC wielders almost useless. There are good choices, sure, but nothing that can't be achieved with the proper application of magic.
So the final decision is: magic heavy, or troop heavy?