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Just starting to play again after a long time. Building up a HE army to play against my friends Lizardmen army.
Just wondering about the best tactics?
So far the only thing I've got is a mage with pit of shades
I think he uses a lot of shooting, skinks and stegadons with bows; and he says that RBTs are dogs of war so he might use some of them?
What would be the best way to counter this? I don't want my SMs to get mowed down before they reach his units. Howler wind and rain lord could be useful, but does that protect against the steg bow and RBTs ?
Was also thinking of using Spearmen as human sheild for my SMs, don't really want their ranks cut down either though
He also uses a slaan so obviously I will need plenty of magic defence. I'm thinking Teclis/Archmage plus a mage for large games and 2 mages for slightly smaller points games. Hopefully that will be enough with the right banners and items?
Will my SMs and WLs be able to stand up against his Saurus warriors? Kroxigors and Cold ones? And will ANYTHING I have be able to go toe to toe with the Stegadons?
On paper Lizardmen seem to be the most overpowered army out there Am I right in thinking this?
Any help would be appreciated! Cheers guys
Firstly, I don't know where your friend is getting the idea that RBTs can be taken as Dogs of War units. They are NOT DoWs. Because of this, I would make sure to take a good read-through of his book. I'm not accusing your friend of being dishonest, but if he misread the point about RBTs, it leaves me wondering what else he might have misread. If he objects to this, explain that in any kind of tournament situation, you are not allowed to withhold your army book from your opponent, you are entitled to a readthrough if you would like.
As for combating the lizardmen:
Skink Bowmen :: easy to deal with. Cavalry are the bane of these little fellows, thanks to their nigh non-existent leadership. If you move fast enough, you can be on him after a round of shooting and a stand-and-shoot. Bows wound us on 4+ which is admittedly nasty, but really, a skink bowman has far inferior stats to any elf.
Stegadons :: a single shot from an RBT can usually do these boys in. Alternatively, you can fire rounds and randomise against the howdah, hopefully stripping all the ugly little skinks off the back of the thing. The Giant Bow is of little concern to you: it's a bolt thrower. It fires one shot that can pierce ranks. Against your spears, that will be nasty, but against most of our army, he'll only skewer 1-2 guys per shot.
Kroxigors :: if fielded alone, these guys can be shot with RBTs or dealt with through magic. If fielded in units of skinks, always aim for the skinks in combat. The skinks provide free kills, which can swing CR into your favor.
Cold One Cavalry :: did you know that ours move faster and aren't subject to stupidity? It's a lot of fun when the LM player finds this out, and gets to deal with a head-on charge from our Dragon Princes.
Saurus :: these guys are pretty nasty. If you've ever gone up against Chaos Warriors, they're very very similar. Our ASF works wonders for us here though. Spears are actually pretty good against these guys, and SMs will terrify him after he loses a unit to them the first time he charges.
Fatty (aka the Slann) :: don't bother taking Teclis. He's too many points for magic defense. You're better off slamming out a Lvl3, and some Lvl2s. The annulian crystal is fun, since it steals one of their dice. The Staff of Sorcery is also nice, for the additional +1 to dispelling. Mix that with the High Lore, and you have a +2 at all times. Drain Magic is a nice spell if you can cast it. Beyond that, scroll the living hell out him, and find some method of giving your best units some MR.
Lizardmen are certainly NOT the most overpowered army in existence right now. Wait until you get to play against demons, or Vampire Counts. The HighElves are a great army at the moment, and it seems like GW has decided to make them the new "average" in the game. This means that hopefully the VC, DoC, DE, powercurve is broken, and we're returning to the HE, WoC, LM books for guidance.
Thanks alot for the reply
Some useful information there!
Could you suggest a basic army by any chance ? Anything from 1000-2000 points... he will be able to match whatever I buy.
I've also posted a very brief army list up in the list forum.
Right now you'd be best to buy an all-rounders list if it's your first time building an army. I gave you the basic "unit vs. unit" matchups that you'd be trying to achieve. Of course, that's easier to do when your whole army is set up to achieve those lineups, but then you're tailoring, and your army will be weaker against other opponents.
If you want to make an army that can deal with your friend's force specifically, go do some spying and come back with the units that he uses.
Does he run his skinks with Kroxigors or alone?
Does he use very many of those nasty Saurus warriors?
Does he go over the top in the magic phase?
How many units of Cold Ones does he field?
Things like that will help us determine what phases and elements you need to be strongest in, and we can go from there. I'm still suggesting that you build the army as an all rounder though first.
He doesn't play against anyone else either, we are just setting up armies for a few games for old times sake So I can't spy and see what he might use because he hasn't used anything before
But I'll do my best to dig around and see what he plans on using
LM are nowhere near the most powerful army out there. With ASF, your swordmasters and white lions will easily deal with saurus units, a lion chariot should have a bit of fun with them too. Don't underestimate the saurus though, they may be slow and go after our ASF but they are very tough to kill and when they hit back, they will hit us damn hard. 15 HE spear attacks (from a unit of 20) will only kill 1.6 or so saurus on average, and assuming you kill 2 they will still hit back with 16 s4 attacks which will kill an average of 4.3 HE's. If you go in with spears you must support them, a chariot of any kind works well for this to get a few extra kills and swing the combat your way.
Stegadons are indeed tough for HE to face since we have very little high strength stuff. I would go with the single shot bolt thrower for a couple turns, and don't worry about the giant bow it has terrible BS so will hardly ever even hit you. The steg will give you the most trouble probably.
So perhaps a long range army might work well? With severl RBTs to cut down his larger units before they reach me?
Apart from his steg-bow he won't have any long ranged attacks right? And the only really speedy units are the cold ones.
Well I was never able to beat him with my Orc army when we were 13 But we didn't know the rules back then really... I'm feeling better and better about this matchup
Never forget the Terradons for speedy units, these boys are actually very good at march blocking and causing general mischief. Eagles do, however, rip them apart, as does some concerted shooting from RBts or archery units like shadow warriors. Also remember that chariots have bows and can't march, so should be shooting every turn until they charge...
Avoid taking anything that relies on pschology for some of its effect - its wasted to a greater extent against LM (so Phoenix Guard and Dragons will have part of their points values neutralised) and given very few units in a LM army cause fear, you should be fine with the few tests you need to take.
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Yep the steg-bow is the only thing that is really long ranged. Skinks have 8-12" range with their weapons, and salamanders/razordons can be around 15" or so probably but are pretty short range. The salamaders distance is artillery dice then flame template so it is a bit of a random distance.
Cold ones are sort of speedy, but 7" is slower than our dragon princes so if you get the charge with DP you should beat them easy. Terradons, as kithre mentioned, can be pretty annoying. They're very fragile, I would hit them with a magic missile to destroy them or go after them with an eagle as long as they don't have a skink character, most don't. Try not to let them get your bolt throwers, though with ASF I would almost give the HE crew half a chance against them...
Several bolt throwers to drag down the steg, yeah. If there is an engine providing a ward save, target it first. Actually target it first even if it isn't using the ward save. Remember you only need to kill the priest to stop it working, and he is t2, but does have a 2+ AS. Single bolts still is my choice, 5+ ward will still fail 66% of the time.
You could try to assassinate him with an eagle noble, the steg hitting back might kill you before you get a chance to run away and rally but to neutralise 3 levels of magic and ~200 points of engine it is well and truly worth the loss. Remember the steg is US 10 and causes terror so if beaten, the noble will auto-flee (barring insane courage) which is what you want him to do.
Strewart you and or Captian Sarathai should flick back through this thread and flesh it out with a bit more detail and give it to Vase to add to the Tactica,
The advice in here is really good and it wouldn't take too much to make it into an excellent starting point for people considering fighting lizardmen.