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    Countering a Summoning Army

    I'm in an escalation league of mighty empires crossed with albion rules. We are about to go up to 1400 points. There are a several vampire counts players who field summoning armies.

    Is there a good way to go hunting and kill the general and thus the army or is their a decent way to end the casting besides hunting down the mages. I tend to see 2 to 3 vamps or possibly instead of a vamp a wright lord all who are level 2, generally with lord of the dead.


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    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    Well, it's actually not difficult for Highelves to counter this. Most of the time, the Vampire is tossing a single die at a spell that casts on a 4+, MAYBE a 3+ ("master of..." raising).

    You want to STOP that right? Okay then- run mage with High Magic. There's an immediate +1 to dispel attempts. Then give him the Staff of Sorcery. There's another +1. The total you get to dispelling: +2.

    Mathhammer tells me that if he's playing with 3+ casters he has a 26% chance of getting through on a single die

    Now, what you need are dice. I'm guessing that the kid is running standard Lvl2 vamps, rather than the Dice-machine Lvl1s with the +2PD power. This means that he pumps 8PD without cutting into the Crimson Gem or Black Periapt. This means he could have 10DD at his disposal for casting Raise Dead or IoN.

    Unfortunately, we can't match him dice for dice. With 3 lvl1s, the most Dispel dice that we can put on the field is 5. If we take the Annulian Crystal we can even that up a bit, pulling one of his dice and giving it to ourselves. Now it's at least 6 to 9.

    Math at this point is looking far more promising. His 9 dice only succeed on 2 actual raises. This is enough to cripple a res army.

    But we can make it even worse. If we want, we can really bring down the hammer.

    1) for free, we can cast Drain Magic. Now, he only gets .6 IoNs off casting on a single die (if we're dispelling on a single die). He's forced to swap to 2 dice, we can swap to two dice, and he's only getting 1 actual raise. And remember, Drain Magic stacks. If each of our mages manages to cast the spell, he can't cast it at all without rolling IF! Best of all, we're guaranteed to have the spell and it works on more than just IoN!!

    2) Sigil of Asuryan is just evil in this case. If we use that, it immediately stops one of his successful castings, and has a 50% chance of removing that caster's ability to cast the spell again. If that worked, we might be pulling 2-3 Res dice right out of his hand. He could cast other spells, but his army is relying on IoN, and it's just not going to get there.


    So, to summarize:
    Use a Mage with the Staff of Sorcery and
    Use a second Mage with Annulian Crystal
    Use a third Mage with Sigil of Asuryan
    Use High Magic and cast 'Drain Magic' with all of them

    This will completely shut off his magic phase, stop the flow of troops to his army, and end in his demise. I know that it sounds expensive to run a setup like that, with those mages costing 140pts each, but he's paying 145 for each of his Lvl2 vampires and that doesn't include wargear or magic items.
    Pts Values for AoS here!

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    Herman1004 Rising Leviathan's Avatar
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    Captain, as always you fail to disappoint me...
    You're pure evil...


    Regards,
    5000p. High Elves
    1000p. Eldar

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    jy2
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    As I will be playing a Morghur-spawning list and a Vampire Counts army with probably 4 mages at 2000pts, this is what I'm thinking of using:


    Teclis or Archmage
    Lvl 2 Mage - Seerstaff
    Lvl 2 Mage - Silver Wand
    Lvl 2 Mage - Annulian Crystal

    Take the lore of light and use Cleansing Flare to annihilate everyone.
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    Isn't there a magic item which allows the HE to end a magic phase immediately? That would be something to try, if you can successfully counter his spells and if you are on the attack you could end your phase in a position where he may well be counting on using a lot of magic to essentialy "Make/Break" the entire battle. If you can push the action and end your round in a point where he thinks he can moves his army thinking he is going to use a lot of summoning to give him the win in a pitched CC battle....only to see it thwarted by the Magic Phase being ended before he has had a chance to cast would break him.

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    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    1480 (x8)

    Jy2- that is a pretty good setup for offensive casting. If you want to be cruel, take Teclis. He's an amazing model- not quite broken, but not quite fair either. The seerstaff is cool, but on a level2 against a heavy magic list I would swap it for the Staff of Sorcery. Teclis's generated dispel dice go into the pool each phase, and with a L2 with the Staff, you can still get a +2 to your dispel rolls. Everyone already knows the 'Drain Magic' spell, guaranteed, so there's no need to choose your spells.
    A level2 only knows 2 spells. You can change any of those for the first. A good trick is this:
    always roll your spell dice individually.
    Die 1
    - if you get a spell that you can reliably cast, even if you don't like it, keep it.
    - if you get a spell that you can't reliably cast, switch it for the first spell

    Die 2
    - if you roll a spell you can reliably cast, keep it, and swap one of your 2 spells for the first if you want
    - if you roll a spell that you can't reliably cast, switch it for the first spell
    - if you've already switched a spell to the first spell, you can reroll this die because you've already got it.

    Really, the trick just makes it more probable that you'll get a useful spell, because it drops the odds that you'll roll a natural 1 alongside a worthless or unwanted spell. This is severe mathhammering, and only gives you a decimal-percent advantage, but I'll take any advantage I can get.

    GMJoe- the elves do have the Vortex Shard, which can be used at the start of any enemy magic phase to automatically cancel it, remove all stored dice, and end all remains in play. This can be good, but it could potentially end your Drain Magic spells. This forces you to recast them, which opens the possibility that your opponent could get an easier phase next turn.
    I was also only suggesting builds that could be used in games under 2000pts. The Vortex Shard is too big to be used by a Hero level mage.
    Pts Values for AoS here!

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    To be really evil you should use of the of mages using lore of light or maybe it is heavens allowing you d3 re rolls, then use the magic item that makes their magic guy forget a spell and if you fail to get 4+ then re roll the dice.

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    I think it's stated that you may only re roll to, to wound and armour saves or something like that. Can anyone confirm this?

    Regards,
    5000p. High Elves
    1000p. Eldar

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    jy2
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainSarathai View Post
    Jy2- that is a pretty good setup for offensive casting. If you want to be cruel, take Teclis. He's an amazing model- not quite broken, but not quite fair either. The seerstaff is cool, but on a level2 against a heavy magic list I would swap it for the Staff of Sorcery. Teclis's generated dispel dice go into the pool each phase, and with a L2 with the Staff, you can still get a +2 to your dispel rolls. Everyone already knows the 'Drain Magic' spell, guaranteed, so there's no need to choose your spells.
    A level2 only knows 2 spells. You can change any of those for the first. A good trick is this:
    always roll your spell dice individually.
    Die 1
    - if you get a spell that you can reliably cast, even if you don't like it, keep it.
    - if you get a spell that you can't reliably cast, switch it for the first spell

    Die 2
    - if you roll a spell you can reliably cast, keep it, and swap one of your 2 spells for the first if you want
    - if you roll a spell that you can't reliably cast, switch it for the first spell
    - if you've already switched a spell to the first spell, you can reroll this die because you've already got it.

    Really, the trick just makes it more probable that you'll get a useful spell, because it drops the odds that you'll roll a natural 1 alongside a worthless or unwanted spell. This is severe mathhammering, and only gives you a decimal-percent advantage, but I'll take any advantage I can get.
    Hadn't thought about that, but I'll give it a try. Thanks.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Leviathan View Post
    I think it's stated that you may only re roll to, to wound and armour saves or something like that. Can anyone confirm this?

    Regards,
    Correct.

    Portent of Fear - to hit or to wound

    Second Sign of Amul - to hit, wound, armor saves and ward saves


    Quote Originally Posted by Hive Node View Post
    To be really evil you should use of the of mages using lore of light or maybe it is heavens allowing you d3 re rolls, then use the magic item that makes their magic guy forget a spell and if you fail to get 4+ then re roll the dice.
    Even if you were able to do that (which you aren't), it'll be a one-trick pony. A good summoning army would have a lot of redundancy. For example, a vampire counts summoning list at 2K would have 4 vampires (possibly 1 lord), each able to cast Invocation of Nehek. You erase 1 and 3 are still able to summon undead.
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    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jy2 View Post
    Even if you were able to do that (which you aren't), it'll be a one-trick pony. A good summoning army would have a lot of redundancy. For example, a vampire counts summoning list at 2K would have 4 vampires (possibly 1 lord), each able to cast Invocation of Nehek. You erase 1 and 3 are still able to summon undead.
    I play vampires as my primary tournament army and I agree with this in part. There will be a lot of redundancy in a VC Rez army- it's part of what makes it a good list. However, there are still advantages to knocking out 1 of his casters ability to cast the spell:

    1) incoming dice- I suggested this in my first post, but if he's got 9 dice casting IoNs repeatedly, and you knock out a caster's chance of casting, now he's down to 7 dice. It's easier to stop. That other caster might still be tossing spells around, but vampires have very few aggressive spells that can be cast without a lord. If they have a lord, stopping him will remove SEVERAL dice (potentially 6) from their pool.

    2) Not all vampires can raise regiments beyond starting their number of models. Some lists that go rez heavy field smaller regiments to start with, and pay 15pts per vampire to gain the ability to make those regiments bigger through IoN. If you stop a vampire who can super-size a regiment, you may have very well crippled his plans. For example, my general has 6PD and is one of only 2 vampires who can raise my Ghouls beyond their starting values. If she can't do this, I'm stuck with TINY regiments of 15 ghouls. I only cast 3 spells, and they're all easy one: Raise Dead, IoN, and VanHels Danse Macabre. They're the only spells we need, and they don't hurt anybody.

    3) Redundancy- Vampire set up for Raise-specific lists are quite pricey. Without weapons or armor or magic gear you're looking at 145pts base. I well tuned army will try to field only as many vampires as they need. Therefore, if he's got 4 vampires set for raising, and you take one out, you've just put a lot of strain on his army. Also, IoN has a short range of just 12". If you knock out a caster, you've destroyed part of the chain that lets them keep their army going. Again with redundancy, they can probably mitigate this by overlapping bubbles, but still- 12" is a big distance in Fantasy.

    Knocking out spells is still a viable tactic, but it only has a 50% chance of working, at best. You can't build a plan around it, because of the redundancy issues and also the poor odds, but you can certainly use it to your advantage.
    Same goes for killing vampires. Highelves should NEVER target weapons at VC infantry choices unless they can reasonably kill a vampire. Why- because we have asf, hit on 3's, and wound on 4s, with more attacks than they'll ever get. Our basic infantry can demolish VC regiments. Vampires are the only thing that keep their army in the fight and make them so nasty. Aim for their flanking regiments and knights (who are dangerous or destroy your SCR), then vampires who you can catch alone, then Corpse Carts, and finally everything else.
    Pts Values for AoS here!

    Nippon Armybook: Isuu, Scribd, and free at Google Docs

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