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I have been playing High Elves for over a year now and Warhammer for around 5 but no matter what I do I can’t seem to get better than a draw or a minor loss! I have no Idea what I’m doing wrong.
My Basic 1500pt army looks like this:
Hero on foot with magic items like weapons shields and occasionally talismans
2 Mages with Magic Armour and silver wands and the like
2 x 20 Spearmen with full command
2 x 10 Bowmen
10 Shadow Warriors (which have NEVER worked )
10 Dragon Princes with full command and banner of Illyrion
1-2 Repeater Bolt throwers depending on how many points I have left
I Use it by sticking the Hero and Mages into the spearmen and placing them in the centre with the bowmen on either side as well as the Bolt throwers. The spearmen advance under the covering fire of the Bowmen, Bolt throwers and scouting Shadow Warriors. The spearmen then charge with the flanks covered by the Dragon Princes and Shadow warriors.
What am I doing wrong!? Any help is good and don’t be afraid to dis my army list and/or tactics just don’t dis me!
Try putting the mages in with the archers. You have way too many dragon princes, 5-6 is usually a good amount. Ditch one of the spearmen units and use all those extra points for a phoenix guard unit instead. Replace the shadow warriors with swordmasters or white lions to have a second hard hitting unit. Your only real "hammer" right now is the dragon princes, and probably half the unit isn't even getting to attack. If the enemy can avoid them you've got very little to hit them with, Shadow Warriors aren't really made for what you're using them for. Getting another hard hitting unit will give you a lot more flexibility. Phoenix Guard are vastly superior to spearmen and you're already overflowing with core choices anyway.
Think about it this way. 5 DPs hitting a flank = 10 attacks at S5, 5 attacks at S3. If you were instead to run 6 DPs and a unit of 7 Swordmasters and flanked with both, you'd end up with 25 S5 attacks and 6 S3 attacks on the charge. The kicker is you're paying even less than having 10 DPs to start with. You'd also have a lot more flexibility and presence on the board and be able to hit multiple enemies hard at the same time.
That'd be where I'd go with it, at least.
Last edited by Evertras; February 10th, 2010 at 03:09.
Oops, double posted by mistake. Sorry!
Evertras advice is good.
You need to look at the roles that you want the units to play, at the moment (apart from your Archers) everything is trying to do a lot of different things.
Spears and archers are fine, not optimal but if it is what you have they will do (1 Core then heaps of special would be optimal).
I would definitely spilt the dragon princes into 2 units of 5, each of these is going to try and flank charge whatever the spearmen engage.
Also split up your Shadow Warriors, you want these to get behind enemy lines and try and take out (or tie up enemy shooting). They will also be useful to marchblock if necessary.
Your mages need to focus on their magic phases so seerstaff and ring of fury would be good items here, probably give banner of Sorcery to a dragon Prince unit.
I would make the noble your BSB (No magic Banner), the leadership reroll will be more useful than LD9 General and hopefully allow your Spears to stick for the 1 or 2 combats needed for the Dragon Princes to arrive.
Finally you might want to make a huge change to how you approach the game if you play the same opponents often then try something you would have considered crazy before (all cavalry are Captain Sarathai's favourite), all shooting and magic with minimal combat (single ranks of Swordmasters) with some Reavers or Shadow Warriors to march block.
This will force your opponent to adjust the way that they are playing and help to make you think outside of the box a bit.
Do you play against one army often or is it a mixed bag of opponents that you face, we might be able to help you with one race specifically.
Aye, as mentioned above. Split the Dragon Princes and Shadow Warriors. That gives you two more units on the field. It gives you way more tactical options and makes it much harder for your opponent.
That should help a lot.
Right now I´m thinking of making 20 Spearmen to 14 Lothern Sea Guard with a mage leading them. But I don´t know, if that´s a good idea for you at the moment.
I think if you test your army with those splitted units you will see better games and results. After that you can always decide which units you would like to add
And welcome to LO Zahlvo!
Cavalry forces are my favorites, but they don't hold up as well in the low point games. What I am seeing however, is that you are taking regiments that aren't as good at their job as say... special choices. Here are my suggestions for your army:
1- Swap the 10 Shadow Warriors over to Phoenix Guard. This will provide an anvil to center your army around. Don't go with Swordmasters or White Lions. Go with PGs for their 4+ wardsave and Fear immunity. Give them a standard bearer and War Banner if you have the points.
2- Work on those Dragon Princes. Split them in half, for a regiment of 5. The second half of them can either become a regiment in its own right, or
---2a. Swap 5 of your DPs for a regiment of 10 Silver Helms. This will give you a beefy cavalry regiment that can serve the same role as your 10DPs do now. They have better static CR, so they're good for tossing them against enemies that you might not be able to kill as easily on the charge (remember though- never charge an enemy who you can't break on the charge)
3- Too many core! The great advantage to HE is that we are allowed to have 1 less core regiment than the opponent, and 1 more special and rare choice. This will free up a TON of points for you. I would drop out either a regiment of archers (this will free up space for that second RBT, guaranteed) or drop everything BUT a regiment of archers.
If you opt for the second route, you need to decide what you want to do about your infantry. You can swap them for Cavalry (10PGs becomes 5DPs exaclty), and go with a mounted army, or you can keep your infantry in the list. If you keep the infantry, increase your PG regiment to 15-20 strong, and then add in two, 7-10 man regiments of SwordMasters.
4- Too many upgrades! A good way to save points is to keep your commands to a minimum. Drop the champion in any regiment that will NOT include a Mage. Archers obviously NEVER need a command. Standards are good on all of your combat regiments, and this is often the only form of command that I take. Muscians are a cheap upgrade for spears, but once you start looking at 10+ points for a musician in a special regiment, I just switch off and say no.
5- Too many roles for your Hero section. At 1500, you need to decide what your heroes will do. Typically, I choose to go with some sort of magic-heavy list because our Nobles don't really cut it in a combat role. If you want to run effective, offensive magic, you need to pack as many mages into the list as you can. Offensive builds make use of:
-Banner of Sorcery
-Jewel of Dusk
If you elect to go with magic defense, you can completely shut-down enemy magic at 1500pt levels. Take Lvl1 mages and run items like
-Staff of Sorcery w/ High Magic (+2 to dispel attempts)-
-2x Dispel Scrolls
NOTE: adding the Banner of Sorcery and giving at least 1 of your mages the Lore of Fire will still let you cast offensively
Finally, if you DO decide to go with a combat oriented list, rather than magic, I suggest that you ignore Nobles altogether, run 2 Lvl1 mages with the Staff/HM combo and 2scrolls for magic defense, and then invest in as many RBTs as you can afford in the list, and then bulk your lines out with more fighters. Nobles are a waste of space in an HE army unless you go with 1 of the following:
Noble w/ eagle, dragon armor, reaver bow, enchanted shield, halberd
Noble w/ BSB, armor of caledor, great weapon, Amulet of Light
6- Tactics. These are hard to work on, and all that I can really suggest is that you stick with the game and just try to learn from your mistakes. It took me a LONG time to learn how to use High Elves when I got started. When they changed the Armybook on me, I had to learn how to incorporate infantry into my armies and how to do it well. Your tactics will change based on what you decide to do with your list. I'll keep an eye on this thread, and if you post up an edited list, I (and others) will be sure to help out with tactics.
First I'd like to say welcome to Librarium Online!
The next thing I'd like to say is that those who posted before me gave some good advice that deserves looking into. I won't beat a dead horse (well maybe a little until he learns his lesson!) so I'll mostly stick to a few general tactical tips.
A few general tactical tips:
When making an army list and fielding it there are a few things to keep in mind. You want to make a flexible force with a very loose battle plan (after all no plan ever survives contact with the enemy). The High Elves are one of the best armies for this, as each of their units from the humble spearman to the mighty swordmaster is a big ‘ol bowl of potential killing machine, but only if properly utilized and directed.
1. Theme. I’m not talking about ‘this is my seaguard list with bolt throwers, tons o’ seaguard, and eagle riding bow lord.’ I simply mean that when making a list you have to decide what you want it to do. Do you want to control the magic phase? How about a crazy shooty army? Or would you like to play a cavalry heavy army and have a highly mobile and maneuverable force? Lots of hard hitting infantry with lots of static combat resolution? Do you want a balanced list with a little of everything, or one strong point that your plan hinges on. All of these are doable, though some are harder to play and master than others.
"Pursue one great decisive aim with force and determination."
- Karl von Clausewitz
2. Focus. Each unit should have a niche to fill, regardless of the theme that you choose. Basically, what do you want out of each unit? Are they an anvil or a hammer? Bait or tar pit? Sacrificial or counter attack? You get the idea. The High Elves have some of the best and most specialized units in the game, and if utilized and directed appropriately can tie up your opponent and bring you victory. But importantly, there should be synergy between your units, each unit, while designed to fulfill a task, should still work with other units in the army, whether its Seaguard covering the bolt thrower, or Phoenix Guard backing up a unit of Dragon Princes.
“An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team”
-General George S. Patton
3. Deployment. Now that you’ve made an army list full of units designed to one thing and by Vaul do it well! Its time to put them on the table. I’ll be honest, I’ve been playing the game for going on six years now and I still manage to mangle the deployment phase. Its one of the most important phases, and it can screw you up if you mess it up. So, my advice is to be careful, when looking at the field try to imagine what pieces of terrain will be detrimental to you plans, and which ones can help you. Don’t worry about putting your big unit in front of your opponent. This greatly depends on what kind of theme your army follows, so I can’t really go too much into it. Another question becomes how one properly utilizes scouts. Without more information on how you play your army the question becomes impossible to answer, as there are several ways to use them. Regardless to say, there are correct ways, and wrong ways to use them.
"The battlefield is a scene of constant chaos. The winner will be the one who controls that chaos, both his own and the enemies."
4. Pick your fights. There comes a time in every game when you get to position yourself to take a charge, or charge yourself, and you must ask whether it’s a fight you want to involve yourself in. Granted sometimes you don’t have a choice in the matter, but you do get to decide how you react to the combat, moving the rest of your force away from it, positioning a unit of cavalry to the future flank, ect. So you should ask yourself ‘whats that unit over there supposed to do?’ glass cannon or freight train? And what is your unit supposed to do? Then act accordingly. For example no matter how awesome your sword masters might be, chances are they’ll be massacred by a unit of Chaos Knights (not a pretty picture!).
“He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot, will be victorious.”
5. Remember the fortunes of war. As earlier stated ‘no strategy survives contact with the enemy’ and be prepared to change your plan accordingly. Warhammer Fantasy is a game of strategy and maneuver as opposed to merely tactics, but a bad roll can really ruin your day, so one of my last pieces of advice before I leave you is to always have a ‘Plan B.’
“The die is cast!”
I hope this was helpful. Tell us about how you use your list and how your opponent has been facing it, maybe then we can give you some more directed advice.
My enemy's enemy is a problem for later. In the meantime, they might be useful.
Thanks for the replies. I really underestimated how many replies I would get in such a small time!
By the way re-written Armylist is pending.
The Ideas are really good. It's funny, to begin with I actually ran a heavy special/rare army. My problem was that all my units were small, my army had 5 PGs, 5 WL, 5 DPs, 5 SHs, 15 SG and 10 Archers.
I found that the small units were too fragile even though I had alot of fun running a BSB with the 80pt Mega-Banner in the PG unit! The seaguard I found were a waste of points 'cause I wanted the 3 ranks for 15 attacks and rank bonus but 5 24" St3 shots were not enough for anything.
I am prepared to buy more figures but at the same time if suggestions could be made from this List it would be verry helpful!
More Nobles and Mages than anyone could need
40 Spear (MANTIC)
15 Sea Guard
20 Bowmen (MANTIC)
5 Pheonix Guard
5 White Lions (NON GW)
5 White Lions (coming soon...)
10 Shadow Warriors (MANTIC)
10 Dragon Princes/Silver Helms (I use them as either)
2 RBT (MANTIC)
(MANTIC) means Mantic Miniatures, if anyones seen them?
Oh and also the usual armies I verse are
As you can see this is quite a mixture of armies. My biggest problem is the Beastmen supprisingly! It also manages to be the army I play most often!
The problem with your special heavy list was the units where too small, 5 PG is the most useless unit in existence . They need their rank bonus so don't take them at this cost, then boost the SM and WLs to 6 or 7, proxy all your cavalry as 2 units of 5 DPs, add as much rare as you can fit, get your 2x10 archers and a seerstaff mage and if you have the points then add some SWs, now your army is very hard hitting but fairly fragile, or swap the SMs for WLs to get a more durable army. And sea guard get frontage as big as possible (at least 7) or on a hill and then reform into 5x3 when the enemy is close.
I've learnt so much from my mistakes...
I'm thinking of making a few more!
The small regiments really were killing you there. You have a lot of potential to go HUGE with this collection, but you currently have a lot more Core models than you really need. Working around that though...
Battle Standard Bearer
2 regiments of 20 Spear Elves with a Standard Bearer, and a Musician
10 White Lions (operating from the flank)
10 Silver Helms w/ Standard Bearer, Shields
or 2 regiments of 5 DPs w/ Standard Bearers (your choice)
*against dwarves and empire, swap 1 of the 2 DP regiments for Shadow Warriors
That's just about everything I can offer from your model selection.
Things to buy would be:
More PGs - they're awesome at holding the line, and will free up your Spearmen
More LSG- if you want to make use of Seaguard, you need to use 21 of them, in 3 ranks of 7. This is the best way for LSG to make their points. 14 attacks from a hill, or 7 from flatland,
and 28 attacks on the Stand-and-Shoot, or a reform to 5x4.
Get yourself some designated cavalry. Probably Dragon Princes as it seems you are using Silver Helms. Not only does this keep things clean for your oppoenents, but it lets you field
mixed armies of Silvers and DPs.
Hope this helps you somewhat.