Welcome to Librarium Online!
This is the start of a new series, that will hopefully bring new ideas and tactics to the forums. Each week, a new topic will be posted up about a different unit in the army book. This gives you your chance to discuss the unit to its fullest. So, please leave your comment!
What is the best unit size? Why take these over the other unit choices? What about command? Are the magic banners worth it for this unit? How would you make them effective?
I find The best use for Silver helms is in units of 5, being used to take out archery lines or flank charges. For the extra 7 points (after buying shield), you normally are better off with Dragon Princes for a main mounted charge (that extra attack and WS go along way). If it was not the fact that high elves get those extra Special slots and they did not come in the brigade box i don't think many people would field them at all.
The fact that in the latest book i cannot find an entry stating that barding does not effect high elf mounted units anymore (if it does please tell me the page no.), i find other races mounted units a better priced choice. Empire knights same points as SH+Shield bit have lower INT but better save.
I still like the models, and would like a reason to inculde the 30 i have in my competitive army choices but cannot find one.
What do you guys think?
I actually use my SilverHelms in a reverse role to Hoeth. This is most likely because my army is comprised almost entirely of Cavalry regiments, backed with RBTs and archers. I use shooting and magic to knock down enemy light cavalry and troublesome missile weapons. Those roles being filled, I turn to my Silver Helms and DPs.
Indeed, Dragon Princes boast an added attack and a higher weaponskill, but they are pricey for both the roster and the wallet. Therefore, we need to find a use for our cheap and plentiful Silver Helms. So lets make a comparison:
We're charging in against a large block of 20 Rank-and-File soldiers, in this case, Empire Swordsmen. We have two regiments sitting in front of us, almost identically priced.
10 Silver Helms w/ shields, standard bearer
@ 246 pts
6 Dragon Princes w/ standard bearer, champion, warbanner
@ 240 pts
Silver Helms CR: 2.3kills + 1rank + standard + outnumber = 5.3
DPs CR: 6.65kills + 2standard = 8.65
Swordsmen v. SH CR: 3rank + standard = 4, lose by 1.3
Swordsmen v. DP CR: 3rank + standard + outnumber = 5, lose by 3.65
SH CR: 1.25 kills + 1rank + standard + outnumber = 4.25
DP CR: 2.1 kills + 2 standard = 4.1
S v. SH: .78 kills + 3ranks + standard = 4.78, win by .53
S v. DP: .44 kills + 1rank + standard = 2.44, lose by 1.66
So, obviously the Dragon Princes are better you say. And yes, they are better. Against WS3 opponents, the DPs will usually score another kill, but it's still not enough to make the regiments even.
A DP list will feature almost half as many models on the table as a Silver Helm list. This makes the list more vulnerable to shooting and magic, and effects like Fear.
Furthermore, if you lose a Dragon Prince, you are losing 2 attacks rather than the normal 1. If you lose a Silver Helm, you lose a single attack, and your rank bonus. The attack can be made back however, by reorganizing the regiment to 6 wide, or even to 7 wide against some foes to make up for the rank loss.
The smaller regiments also mean that you only need to lose 3 DPs before they're unable to rally, and the enemy gains their VP. You have to lose 5 SilverHelms before you suffer the same consequences.
For this reason, I usually include 1 or 2 SilverHelm regiments in my Cavalry army, and use them to fight against big, ranked regiments. That frees up my Dragon Prince regiments to hunt down enemy elites or enemy cavalry. The alternative would be to use the SHs to hunt small enemy regiments, as Hoeth does, but then you are chewing through Special choices for the same model-count that you find in an all DP army.
The choice between a regiment of 6DPs or 10SHs is a personal one. Some people really bite down on the idea, while others will look at it skeptically. I suggest that players should really try it for themselves and see what they like. Mathhammer and statistics are all well and good, but they only go a short way towards displaying the effectiveness of a regiment.
In my experience, I tended to fear the SilverHelms more then the DP's, mostly because the DP's almost required that I redirect magic from my Grey Seer or the usage of warp fire throwers to protect my flank, whereas with SH it meant the enemy had more stuff elsewhere, forcing me to have to pick what I really wanted to do out more carefully.
I think the both comments above are all true and valid, the main difference is how we use our HE, my force is mainly Infantry with small units of mounted models for support. i suppose armies tend to float around certain tactics. (i know most dwarf is advancing gun line). Having the extra models over extra attacks would be better against ranged opponents.
I will take the others adices and try to let my SH have the run of the field rather than just blanking them.... never know they may do well.
Ok, to make it short. Silverhelms suck.. and should.... never.... ever.... be used.
the comparison of 10 SH's vs. 6 DPs with a champion is not realistic imo, because a champion DP is 20 pts... for 1 more attack? unless I need to load him with a specific 25 pts magic item, I'm never going to have a champ there.
Also, wasting a whole 115 pts just to get a rank bonus for the SH's is a colossal waste.
A more realistic comparison would be:
5x DP's with banner = 170 pts
6x SH's with banner + champion (here the extra attack is much more worth it, plus a 7th SH can't help in the charge against 20x20 infantry) = 171 pts
And again, charging WS3 T3 infantry AS 5+ (it would get worse for the SH's against WS4), likely wounding should be around:
DP's: ~ 6.38 wounds
SH's: ~ 4.88 wounds (against WS4 it would drop to 3.98 wounds)
if I add one more DP to make it 6 for extra charge punch.. it gets even worse for the SH's.. as more SH's won't help.
Highelves' ASF makes it all about the 1st punch, all the DP's would deliver their damage even if the enemy hits back and kills 1.
Add on top of this the LD 9 instead of 8 (incase enemy causes fear), and Dragon Armor immunity to Breath and Flaming.. and the discussion is pretty much over I think... SH's are a waste of points that should be spent on DP's instead.
The fact that you get them in a Battalion anyway is true though, might as well use them, or ask your opponent to proxy them for DP's
I hit your Dragon Princes with Fury of Khaine, they take on average 3 wounds. Now your regiment is at or below half strength, and might not even remove rank bonuses anymore. You have 6 attacks on the charge, and when you break, you have no hope of rallying. Plus I just scored 85-100pts.
You hit my Silver Helms with the same spell, they take on average... 3 wounds! Now I'm still above half strength, I still manage 5 attacks on the charge and remove ranks, I barely even have to take a break check, and I get to keep my 123pts.
So... I would certainly pay 115pts for those benefits.
I'm not telling anyone that they should replace their Dragon Princes with SilverHelms. I'm not telling anyone to replace their Dragon Princes with Silverhelms if they're playing an infantry list. The point of the thread was to discuss both the disadvantages and the advantages to SilverHelms. My cavalry armies are small enough, and limited to having to choose their forces entirely from the special slots. In a mixed-list army, your enemy has to choose to target the big infantry anvils, or your flanking regiments of cavalry. He's probably going to try and whittle down those 24PGs with Korhil, rather than 5 pesky knights. In a cavalry army, the only way that I can get bodies onto the field is to take beefy units. I'm certainly not going to spend the points to take a regiment of 10 Dragon Princes. But SilverHelms fill the role nicely.
It's not always about kills and points costs, or bringing all your guys home alive. My SHs are my sacrificial lambs, my anvils, and my bullet-magnets. I always bring atleast a single regiment of 10SHs along with about 2-3 regiments of DPs and 2 TChariots. So far, people hate going up against the list.
Haha interesting input.
In my humble opinion, although Silver Helms have taken a severe beating with the new Army Book, they nevertheless hold a critical role for our troops.
SHs are the jack-of-all-trades (but master of none) cavalry choice. They still rule the small point value games where it is not feasible to simultaneously take Reavers and Dragon Princes. In taking SHs, you are afforded a little bit of the flexibility of light cavalry while simultaneously keeping the strength, armor save and lances of a not-to-laughed-at heavy cavalry unit. Also, they can be tailored to be a relatively cheap light(er) cavalry option if you are squeamish about taking Reavers or just want a cheap flanking option. Plus, as an added bonus, Silver Helms are the cheapest cavalry unit for any HE player to purchase from GW, and any HE player worth his salt has at least one spare Silver Helm unit lying around somewhere.
In summary, therefore, in large point games, I would agree that the vaunted Silver Helms have lost much of their usefulness, but in smaller games, the flexible Silver Helms still rule the field.
looking at the stats, yes, that is a huge change from what I was thinking. Yeah, on the new stats out there, the DP are much better off then the SH.
I think that DP's are the better choice, for larger battles. i will keep my SH's for smaller battles. I think the "High elf Nobles" need some tweeking in alot of areas either better rules or lower points cost (about 20 all in). Again i like the idea of them, but logic says to keep them out of my lists.
They need to be on par with Cold one riders and sadly don't come close.