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Archers and spearmen
Starting a HE army and was wondering if its better to take the Sea guard for shooting and then put them into block of infantry or is it better to take units of archers and then a couple blocks of spearmen.
I think the lothern sea guard are great, however with the penalty to move and shoot, (which as far as I know is present), the fact they are shortbows (increasing the probability that you will be penalized for long range, and even the probability that you will be unable to target). Sure, we can now shoot in two ranks, but since we fight in four, reforms in the ranks are still needed unless you're alright in shooting with just 10 models (unless you're going for horde, and if you're going for a horde of lorthern sea guard, be prepared to sink a helluva lot of points- 50*13- 650 to get the max amount of attacks + shields). Anyway., sorry about the rant, but too many problems for limited versatility.
The thing to remember about High Elves is that each unit has its own job. They're kind of like Eldar in that respect. While each unit is really good at its job, it isn't nearly as good at other things. The archers are set up to be the ultimate in long range marksmanship. The spears are set up to be a punishing wall. It's the Sea Guard's job to be versatile.
That's not to say they're a bad unit. They're very good at being versatile. However, they're not good at being a wall or good at shooting. Honestly, I'd suggest using Sea Guard as a support unit. Like if you have it set up to be archers - spears, throw a small unit of Seaguard in to help either unit, depending on what happens.
"It is only the great men who are truly obscene. If they had not dared to be obscene, they could never have dared to be great."
I would argue that point now. Points are at a premium throughout our entire army right now, because we want to be able to field bulkier regiments of our Elites than we did before.
For this reason, if we want to "min max" a regiment of 10 archers offers us no bonus aside from filling in points and putting bodies on the field. Bodies on the field is nice, but filling in points is a waste. We'll still need to pick up spears to defend and hold the gaps that our elites can't cover.
Spears are premium, and they represent the bare-bones minimum for our army and trust me: they're hideously powerful. There are players on the Warriors section of this forum complaining about how much High Elf spearmen hurt now. So we want big blocks of spears. We have no bunus unless we run them 4 ranks deep (2 standard + Spears + Martial Prowess). But if we still want a little shooting, we have to add a block of archers to the back of this regiment, which takes up space on the battle line, and points on the field.... or do we??
LSG are going to be my weapons of choice for the Min/Maxed list. We can field 1000pts of Characters, and with all of our pricey Characters and cool mounts to put them on, those points are going to be eaten up quickly. We can field 1000ps of Elites, and we don't have the stupid 0-3 restriction that everyone else does, so there is no reason not to fill our battle lines with elites. We can also field 500pts of Rare, which means 5 RBTs for us. We only want to field the minimum 25% core, we want to be able to capitalize on shooting, and we want to be able to capitalize on our now amazing Spears. So we grab the LSG.
In the old days, LSG were overpriced because you were paying for bows in a regiment which would be blocked up and normally only able to fire with 5-7 men. Now, we are able to fire with 10 men, even if we move, and up to 16 in a 20man regiment, without breaking formation. Our archers have always been far too pricey to be considered useful, unless we needed fire support to cover a cavalry advance (don't make me cry at the loss of that). So now, we still want a bit of shooting to augment the contingent of RBTs, and we want spears to fill in the gaps of our lines. Well, for 3pts we can give a Spearman a bow, and for a point, we can give a bowman a Spear. Sounds like a plan to me. Where once we had 20 Spears and 10 Bows, now we have 30 LSG, and they're doing just fine.
In the brave new world of Warhammer 8th edition, 6" is a lot so I think its rather unfair to discount archers so out-of-hand... And by this I mean that you could actually get 30 archers, deploy as a horde to get 30 attacks ASF AND get 25 missile shots on the volley, especially against enemies where this is an uncertain fate as to charging - I could easily see 25 shots for 3 turns against an infantry unit followed swiftly by... a failed charge....and a stand and shoot of 20 shots, assuming no reduction in firepower, or even 4 turns of shooting if the archer unit moves backwards once the enemy is at half range. This is against possibly 2 turns of shooting against the same enemy from normal bows followed by a stand-and-shoot, or 3 with movement - in essence fewer "attacks" hitting on 5s or 4s and with no chance of being hit back.
A LSG unit is better in a way because of the armour but they are more expensive so you coudl afford fewer, and they simply cannot concentrate as much firepower as an archer unit over range. Albeit a relatively paltry 30" range...
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i take 3 units of 21 sea guard 7 by 3
if they move they get 14 shots but with the new volley shot they get 18 shots if they dont move. i figure they shoot two times before they get charged than 14 shots with stand and shoot. and than 3 ranks of spears with rerolls. that is why i take sea guard
I would take sea guard in an instant if I was a high elf player. I am a warriors of chaos player; I was just checking out other army forums to find weaknesses in my usual enemies so I may not have this right, but it seems to me that sea guard is way better. Sea guard is basically a unit of spearmen with bows for a few points extra. As a warriors of chaos player, looking at a block of 40-50 sea guard is alot more intimidating than seeing a block of 25 spearmen and a block of 10 archers.
Screw the spray gun. I paint my own models!
Although I voted LSG, I would recommend using a small unit of archers, and a larger unit of spears. LSG only really work in an LSG themes list.
WH40K - Farsight's Slayers
WHFB - Myfanwy Blaithin's Costal Brigade - 2000 HE
Lately since the 8th ed came in I have been using the LSG more often then the others. For a unit of 24 of them I deploy them in two rows of twelve and shoot for 2-3 turns before using a swift reform to turn in a 6x4 block ready to fight in combat beside an elite. The points i save on not buying spearmen AND archers goes towards another bolt thrower which helps subsitute for less long range archers.