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Thoughts on using RBTs with them costing 50 pts a wound. Being wounded on a 6 and only having a 6 AS.
I'm hesitate to use them now, but HE need their fire power. In 7th Edition I would use 2 RBT and 1 Eagle most of the time. Now I'm thinking of 4 Eagles and no RBT or 3 Eagles and 1 RBT.
i'm still packing 2 RBT's in my 2000pt list.
they're still a good way to hit the big stuff
STR6, no armour saves, d3 wounds isn't much to be laughed at =/
I agree. They are powerful, but they die easy from shooting now. They don't last long and for 50 pts a wound I'm not sure they are worth the points. If I go first they get 2 to 3 shots, if I go second they get 2 shots sometimes only one.
One upgrade I'd like to see is maybe truesilver bolts with a magical blade, or alchemical fire bolts...but if wishes were pennies....
Whilst you give your opponent other targets, these things are safe enough, its only when the battlefield is a melee and those war machines on hills have nothing else to shoot that this becomes an issue anyway...And of course offense is the best defense - I think that a Bolt Thrower may well be able to kill an Empire Great cannon before it does likewise, though I have to do the maths to check this....
Opposed to you guys, I run 5. They're very cheap, and while you might be screaming that 400pts of shooting is a waste, I've had some success with it. When you have 5 on the field, they count as separate units for the purposes of shooting- he has to target his warmachines or casters at them independently. And those are 5 of my front-line regiments who aren't being shot.
30 shots also frees me up from having to take archers in my core, and I can comfortably take Spears or LSG. Round that out with some magic, and you're looking at a hurt locker for anyone coming after you. Just because there's only 18" between the armies doesn't mean that you have to deploy right on the line, in the center of the board. I turtle up in a corner like the dwarves, and blaze away. By the time they reach me, my Spears are enough to knock out their survivors.
It is definitely a lesson in fire-discipline though. You need to be shooting at the big nasties, and know exactly what your spears can handle, or what you can sacrifice your spears to and still get the win. My first game, I started piling shots into the lead regiments, and completely decimated them. Then I got hit with the big stuff that had been plodding along behind them... big mistake. Now I know to use magic to blast apart the big guys, and shoot anything that looks like trouble. Archers, or LSG flank-guards, are still good so that they can pick off regiments of enemy light weights who threaten your flanks.
I have to agree with Cap on this one.. I've been using no less than 2 RBT's in any game that I play, even at 1k points. They bring so much to the table for me and are usually pivotal to my army in every game I've ever played. I'm not saying I don't like our feathered friends, the Great Eagles, because they do some work too, but at 3k points? I'll be sure to fit in either 4 RBT's and 2 Eagles or go all out with 5 Throwers.
Not only that, 6 str 4 armor piercing shots at 48" EACH? That's pretty awesome. Way better than a unit of archers IMO. So I take LSG who double as Archers and Spearmen to fill core. With the use of a few well placed spells and flanking elites and you have a force to be reckoned with.
Fantasy: High Elves 7000pts / Warriors of Chaos 6000pts. 40k: Eldar 5000pts / Chaos Marines 2500pts.
I'd much rather be able to kill each unit in one go and archers aren't that unit. I can then concentrate magic against something else or augment my shooting with magic if I REALLY need to kill something. A build like this, with a BoH mage and Curse of Arrow attraction is going to cause a world of hurt against anything unfortunate enough to be targetted. And unliek cannons, my only risk is the mage himself...
On average an RBT can kill off a cannon's crew before the cannon can kill the RBT. However, if the cannon hits the Bolt Thrower itself, he's going to annihilate it and leave the crew stumbling around with nothing to do.
I'll tell you a little secret though, since I play Empire but love High Elves- Mortars with an engineer are the best counter-battery fire that the Empire has to offer. The template doesn't roll to randomize hits, and if it hits well, it will take down an entire crew and leave the machine almost unscathed.
The difference between the RBT and the Cannons is that I have 5 RBTs with a +1 to rolling for the first turn, and they have 3 cannons. Even if I have to go second, chances are good that I'll still be holding on to 4 fire-ready RBTs, and I'll have crosshairs on those artillery pieces. Fire volleys, not single bolts.
But I don't use RBTs to knock down artillery. I use magic. So it's no big worry of mine. A Lvl4 with a Seerstaff and a Lvl2 on an Eagle to guarantee spells like the 'Purple BeatStick of Xerxeus' will ruin the day of any artillery train.
"Oh yes, I am most certainly on the flank of your guns"
"And- I'll shoot you next turn"
"Yes, you will. But not before I do this"
/high elf player throws maximum PSoX on 6 dice
/empire player automatically fails all I tests on his warmachines
"Bet you wanna shoot me now..."
So the only time this would work is with an archmage, and I sure don't want my Lord with T3 and no armour to ride around on an Eagle.
5000p. High Elves
On the plus side under the new rules it would be a T4 with a 6+ armour save and whatever ward you gave your Archmage so probably a 4+.
I think that Mages on eagles became more viable not less in 8th ed.
On average a Cannon does D6 wounds and our Bolt Thrower now only has 2 so any hit on the machine sould kill it. If you deploy like a muppet and leave 2 close and staggered then 1 shot could kill both quite easily. You completely ignore the crew so can only hit the machine, crew are basically just wound counters.
Using Bolt throwers is a complete waste on enemy artillery, you get 6 shots that need 6's to wound that averages less than a wound a turn and wastes your best shooting. If you want to shoot artillery. then units of 10 to 15 Archers are the best bet, (12 should average a wound a turn). Our bolt throwers are better used on targets with medium toughness (4 or 5), armour (5+ or better) or multi wounds monsters where the S4 armour piercing or High Strength single bolt is useful.
Eagles Shadow Warriors and Ellyrian Reavers are still my answer to most enemy warmachines. (Hell cannon aside, I think that would still be Bolt Throwers)