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Well I'm a long time Warriors of Chaos player, and I am considering getting a High Elves army.
Now I really like the special rules, characters, magic items, play style etc. but I can't help seeing the stats and going "S3 T3, damn those things seem expensive, squishy and weak." I know they are glass cannons but can someone explain why they are good to reassure this player that is used to S5 T4 3+/5++ chaos warriors?
T3 is a hindrance, it is true, but generally High Elves are mobile enough to get where you need them fast and from there they will cut down the enemies. Against the enemis that Chaos Warriors traditionally have issues, High Elves will also have some issues, but can leverage on using better resources against them. Gun Lines for example will mince up both Warriors and HE, but HE simply have better tools to unlock them. Chaos Warriors are also pretty blunt instruments, but HE gained a lot in teh new game with their ASF rereolling to hit, and if you can whittle enemy units down adequately, you can unleash swordmasters on them and be assured a decent combat outcome. Even Warriors would struggle against Sword masters or WL if they weren't deployed in at least 3 ranks, as you wont get that many attacks back if you were not...
Yes, T3 S3 is a problem. Magic however is not a problem at all. High Elves have the ability to completely and utterly dominate the magic phase, and when our magic is sued correctly, S3 or T3 is nothing to worry about. I love to take two magies with Lore of Life and Lore of Shadows, as these two combined makes our units near untouchable. Or, if you really want to destroy your enemies magic and make yours unbeatable, we always have the best mage in the game, Teclis.
As was also mentioned, there's Lore of Shadows to turn your spearelfs into DE Assassins.
T3? Throw an augment on them, now they're T7!
S3? Throw an augment on them, now they're S8!
Did I mention those augments were cast with irresistible force without miscasting?
So those Spearelfs/Seaguard are now fighting in 4 ranks (5 if you have the moxie to run horde), ASF, re-rolling misses to hit at WS4 S8? Assuming Horde vs a 5-wide unit, you're talking 35 ASF WS4 re-rolling S8 attacks, assuming a mage in front rank w/champion. And if they were Seaguard, they got to stand and shoot with 20 shots as well.
And that's your core.
You want to compare vs Chaos Warriors? Phoenix Guard. With one augment from Life they're T7, 4+ Ward, Heavy Armor and Halberds. Fear Causers with L9 is just the icing on the cake. Then when a direct hit from a stone Thrower manages to kill a whole 4 of them you raise D6+1 wounds back to the unit while restoring one for free on your BSB.
I've done all of the above, and I have yet to take Teclis in a game.
Also, we have this little combo we can pull where we make an Archmage Ethereal while turning all magic weapons in base contact into mundane ones. So you give that Archmage Life and he can safely sit in the front rank of PG or White Lions (WLs with Regen is nasty) and buff away-- or you can go really really sick-nasty, put the mage on Lore of Death duty and run around challenging out heroes.
Last week when I was feeling particularly daring I took that combo on an Archmage mounted on a Great Eagle, flew right at a deathstar horde of Ironguts+Tyrant+BSB+Slaughtermaster, challenged out the Tyrant in the unit and locked the unit up for 3 turns before my constant purple-sun hurling broke the unit while the rest of my army piecemeal picked apart his Scraplaunchers, MSU Bulls and gnoblars.
Now if I had Teclis in addition to this? Good lord that would be nasty +d6 power dice due to Teclis+Banner of Sorcery, +4 to all casting, +5 to all dispel attempts? Teclis PICKING LORES BEFORE THE GAME?
Teclis is just plain old (deleted medical reference-mod)nasty...
Basically I guess what I'm saying is that Elves have to play around their T3, yes. They always have to keep it in mind. But if you're even only paying attention to it in passing, it's not that hard to play around. As has been said, our biggest issue is getting tore up with S4 shooting. But we have some decent warmachine hunters, we have a good choice of Lores if you're having issues with any particular phase of the game. Shadow in particular is very good for HE's, with Mindrazor meaning S8+ Elves, Miasma meaning you can drop the BS on those nasty Thunderers by D3 and then once in the thick of it drop WS. And of course don't forget that Pit of Shades is still awesome and Pendulum gives HE's a much needed Cannon.
HE's are a bunch of highly-specialized, still generally crap units that when used together in combined arms become more than the sum of their parts. All our units have big issues that other units can mitigate.
Last edited by sirkently; August 11th, 2010 at 12:40.
That comment isn't required.Teclis is just plain old (deleted)nasty...
And how do you win or lock vs static combat res on an Eagle? Especially as Folraiths robes can only be taken on foot...
Last edited by sirkently; August 11th, 2010 at 12:41.
Good call on the eagle, somehow missed that
C) +1 for charging for me +1 for Flank, vs 2 from Ogres due to BSB+Standard. Magic comes before close combat, and Purple Sun cleared out enough that he didn't have any ranks left. Next round he didn't have enough for LOS and my Sun killed his BSB+Slaughtermaster. The only thing that kept passing the Initiative tests was his I6 Tyrant.
EDIT: Also kudos to him whipping out a Feedback scroll on me, but he only rolled one 5 on 5 dice.
Last edited by sirkently; August 11th, 2010 at 12:42.
Try using Teclis to augment with Flesh to stone, and suddenly, a flimsy little elf becomes an unstoppable killing machine. Not enough points? Try a level four archmage with seerstaff of saphery. How about four spells chosen by you, from any lore, including high magic. If you're still concerned, try the lore of shadow. Sniping off a threat, and then using smoke and mirrors to vanish and appear M+12" away from the next target. So, if you use magic in the right way, and try using units in the needle strategy, you have a very formidable force, capable of slaying Karl Franz himself.
WH40K - Farsight's Slayers
WHFB - Myfanwy Blaithin's Costal Brigade - 2000 HE
Interesting, will have to study the armybook.
All these magical suggestions have been great but I refuse to believe that without Teclis + banner of Sorcery anybodies magic phase has been that consistently good. I know that there are great combos out there and that there are extremely good spells in most lores but to depend on magic is to lose half your games.
It is not a reliable phase anymore.
If you roll anything and a 1 or 2 then you are faced with probably having to rely on irresistable force to get through the spell you want, or spam small spells that is also managable for the opposition/ risking losing concentration. I have read a great deal about how awesome magic can be and I can see the devastating consequences but to depend on it is too much of a gamble in my opinion.
Most of my magic phases have been poor and unreliable, often downright dangerous.
I agree somewhat that Magic is a rough phase for anyone. The difference is that it's what Elves have to do. We don't have a choice, so we may as well sink the points into the phase and get what can from it. Banner of Sorcery + Teclis is going to give us +2D3 Powerdice, and then with his Doubles ability, we're looking at a measure of success.
The elves are fragile indeed- they were my first army, and I'm still getting over the shellshock of seeing my guys perform miserably and trying to stay out of the fights unless I'm on a horse. However, spears are doing as well as they ever have, if not better with our new ASF rules. Our elite infantry are questionable for me. Swordmasters are cool, but they aren't survivable, and while Lions have their cloaks, shooting still tears them up. I'm thinking that Cavalry might still be the best for the Elves, as we can at least slam in and generate some CR from kills and hopefully tip the combat to one side.
They're still a more than playable army, and it's a nice change-up from Warriors (which I also play). Warriors are a "charge-in-and-kill" army, whereas Elves take a little finesse.