Welcome to Librarium Online!
So I've searched through the forums so far but it must not be hard enough becasue I can't seem to find specific answers to my questions about HE.
I got the IoB starter and I am coming into a second, and I noticed that its sort of rough to run a list via just that. (As has been said by others.)
I am looking to play games around 1500-2500pts. And my questions sort of fall in that range.
I plan on buying
- The Prince/Noble combo to get a hero and lord options yahknow.
- RBT x1 or maybe 2 (advice on that would be awesome as well.)
My Specific questions are
- Should I invest in more Spearmen/LSG OR, Archers.
- I know HE archers are very expensive for what you get with them, and I am curious as to if I should perhaps start with something else.
- as a WoC player i would like to ease into the HE style perhaps starting with an army closer to the way WoC play (very in your face and stabby)
- This I assume is done via Swordmasters and Spearmen, but they would be moving quite slow so i am thinking LSG rather than spearmen so i can move and shoot a bit each round to soften up the enemy.
- is this sort of army start up not really a viable option due to S3 T3?
- Cavalry. Should I spam it, I know 8th has sort of nerfed it a bit but I would rally like to see some horses that aren't 40+pt chaos knights for a change.
- There seem to be a few types of cavalry in HE and I am wondering what the general use of both of them are, and if the more heavy variety is really even worth it for a starter force.
- Should I perhaps look to purchase a 3rd IoB HE set or maybe even just the LSG from them in order to round out my list thus far?
I really look forward to answers and I really hope you call can help me.
The High Elves are a very stabby army but rely o being abe to kill the enemy fatser than they can attack back. ASF helps a lot but you want to win maonouvre warfare against most opponents as High Elves simply cannot afford to face a significant number of attacks back, as the best AS is 5+ on the infantry and almost always woudned on 4+ or better...
What High Elves offer is a fast and skilled elite (Mv5 helps a lot...).
With 8th Ed - indeed cavalry was nerfed, but a 12-strong unit of Dragon Princes is immune to flaming attacks (Take that flaming standards, lore of metal and lore of fire!!), has a sum total of 19 S5 lance attacks and 6 steed attacks on the charge and costs substantially less than the same number of Chaos knights (abot 2/3 of the cost)
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Firstly, I love RBTs. I have a least one (if not 3/4!) in each army.
Dragon Princes as Kithre says still do very nicely.
I prefer LSG over spearmen/archers, but you only want to take the absolute minimum of core choices so the third IoB set would probably be a waste.
Phoenix Guard and White Lions make a nice unit, PG can be almost invincible with the right banner/champion items and make perfect hero guards imo. I usually have at least one mage with them with the lore of life to boost their survivability further and to bring them back from the dead if it goes wrong!
Welcome ChildOfKhorne... I'm in exactly the same place as you. I have about 3000 points worth of WOC and am now getting into collecting High Elves. I am however wanting a completely different experience so I'm looking at doing a build using multiple chariots and lots of archers.... maybe with some stabby stuff thrown in. I have the IOB set and have started painting that. Next to add will be a battalion box and I have a lion chariot and 3 horse chariots. I'll see how I go from there.
Yeah I am thinking of adding in the battalion. It seems like it would really round out what I have right now.
I am going to start painting the HE I have right now and see about some smaller point games with what I am working with and use that as a spring board to see what I really need to make it work.
I have the opposite experience from the two of you- I started Warhammer with Elves, and eventually moved to Warriors of Chaos. I will tell you- be prepared to lose models, and learn what you can and cannot take down with each of your regiments. Warriors tend to be quite forgiving, elves... not so much.
Elf cavalry is still quite good. I and Kithre used to take armies with as much cav as possible, but lately that's changed for me. We are being forced to field infantry, and "step-up" and "steadfast" really hurt our cavalry. The hardest thing for cavalry to face, was something that could lock it into a prolonged fight, because after we lose our lances, we can't do enough damage to swing a battle, and with T3, we start taking casualties double-time. Step-up means we're going to get hit from round 1, and Steadfast means that we're almost always going to be stuck-in for the long haul.
If you still want to play cavalry, my advice would be to build a few solid Infantry regiments (perhaps spears or LSG) to provide a bit of static-combat resolution and try to cancel out the enemy "Steadfast" by adding some ranks to the combat. Then build your cavalry regiments to flank those blocks while they're stuck in against your spears. Your opinion on what to take for this role really depends on what you want to do.
12 Dragon Princes seems like a LOT of overkill. That's easily 400pts tied down into a single regiment. Even 10 of them is a hefty chunk of your army. 10 Silver Helms, by comparison, will offer you just 5 fewer attacks, for about 2/3 the cost.
Think of it this way: you can get 3 Dragon Prince regiments in a 2k list. You can get 4 SilverHelm regiments in the same army.
Because cavalry should always work in tandem, either with an infantry regiment or another regiment of cavalry (in a bind), you are going to want to plan ahead a bit.
If you want to play a cavalry heavy force, you'll probably want to invest in Spearmen just to keep your points-costs down and your body-count up. If you want to go for a more balanced army, you'll want to pick up the smallest amount of Core possible, and that's where LSG really shine. They aren't necessarily for shooting all their way across the field- it slows them down too much- but they can provide themselves or other regiments with close-fire-support when needed. That's what makes them superior to our long-range archers. If you drop 110pts on a regiment of archers, you're pretty much committing them to the sidelines, and once battle is joined, you may as well cross those points off your roster. LSG are in it for the whole game, or until your pry their weapons from their cold, dead, fingers.
For your final question- no. You only need 2 IoBs at most. You don't want to pay for a third Griffon Prince, or 10 more Ellyrion Reavers do you? And you won't make your money back unless you trade in the skaven for another GP, and 10 more Ellyrion Reavers. Yeah, you get 40LSG (12 of which are command models) then, but that's $50 later. You would be better off just buying a $35 box of LSG and going up to 36 of them. If you need more (you will) grab another box.
Obviously, if you really want to pick up large or plentiful regiment so Sword Masters, you can look into an IoB, but that ultimately depends on what sort of list you'd like to run. Hold off on the 3rd IoB set, and see if you could really use those models.
Also- I might transfer this post to a stickied thread specifically for players starting High Elves. As you said- it's difficult to find "starter" info, but it will also save us all from having 100 posts just for these kinds of questions.
Captain, that was some great advice. And yes this could be used as a great resource for the "Flood" of new High elf players that could come from the IoB.
As I've been reading about the forums I am quite tempted to try some larger blocks of infantry. And pretty much use the Ellyyrion Reavers as flank harassers.
So my mind Is telling me Minimum amount of core in the form of LSG/Spearmen and then a bit of our specialty points via PG or Swordmasters. With the high movement getting into combat shouldn't be hard. And The goal is to try and get multiple blocks into combat simultaneously, and try to break the enemy one block at a time. Perhaps some RBT for range support before my infantry blocks get into combat. But really not sure about the list idea. And mind you this is all before considering hero/Lord combination with said blocks, although I am thinking two sorcerers with Life & High lores respectively.
Addendum 1: being new I am trying to think if this is a good way to start to bridge the gap between warriors and Elves until I learn the finer points?
Addendum 2: Would the Battalion be a good invenstment as far as picking up more models for the army as a whole. I feel like it is but some advice or perhaps suggestions on alternative purchases would be fantastic.
Yep, this would be the way to get an effective and "stabby" High Elf army.
You've also gotten the quintessential elven tactic down firm- use multiple regiments to hit the enemy with more force than he can handle, and break him quickly. The plan however, is that you don't charge if you can lure the enemy into charging you. Why? Because we get an extra rank with spears if we're defending, which is much better than +1CR for charging. Also, our LSG will get an extra volley of shots in from Stand-and-Shoot, before hitting the enemy with spears.
Take the blow with the Core troops, or Phoenix Guard (not as 'killy' as SM or WL, but the most durable infantry in our army) and then flank the units with either cavalry or small blocks of elite infantry on your next turn.
This helps to alleviate the need for several expensive ranked-up formations, as the smaller elites will benefit from the ranks present in the "anvil" regiment.
In low point games, I would go with larger blocks of spears, and then back them up with Swordmasters, which makes the IoB boxes perfect. In larger games, with more points to work with, I'd look to change out some of the points spent on spears to add in a sturdier regiment of Phoenix Guard. They are always Stubborn if the General joins them, and their 4+ wardsave and Halberds mean that they're better at taking hits from enemy elites. Then give them a group of Swordmasters or cavalry to work on their flanks as well.
Hmmm... having just looked at the Battalion, it may not be as good a deal as I remember it. I remember that it used to be archers, an RBT, spears, and a regiment of 8 silverhelms. Now they've dropped the Silvers for a Chariot though, and unless you have a real reason to use one, I don't see why you'd buy it. It's also only saving you ~$15 (not counting the extra 4 archers and 4 spears).
As you don't want archers, and have 2 IoB boxes, you could go with another 2 boxes of Spears for a total of 52 LSG (2 units 25). You already have your regiments of 10 SMs to work flanks, and your Ellyrians. I'd grab 2 RBTs, and then a box or two of Phoenix Guard. That's going to total out at ~$150-200, and it gives a very solid core. From there you can chose to add cavalry or swap out SwordMasters for White Lions at leisure. I would get that core, and then consider picking up a battalion if you ever find yourself wanting Archers, a Chariot, or needing more Spears.
Is anyone else incredibly frustrated to see that GW has the testicular-fortitude to charge us almost $30 for our Dragon Princes, but only charge $25 for an equal sized (and more points-heavy) regiment of Chaos Knights? And Chaos Knights are some of the heaviest plastic models in the game! And then, to top it off, buying a box of 10 of the new plastic Elites is only 8.75 cheaper than the metal boxes of elites were! Meanwhile, you get 12 Chaos Warriors (same pts cost, more plastic) for just $35. I'm glad that I already own my models, as GW is gouging us all rather heavily- of course they'd take advantage of the influx of HE players...
I mentioned in another topic how expensive the HE have become in the UK we are paying in some cases £10 more for the new plastic kits than for another armies equivalent!
Yes I have definatly noticed the pricing of our shiny new figures, though I do thank GW for basically cutting the DP's price in half, I'm an Aussie that was forced to pay up to 95 AUD for the old metal DP's and now they release the new plastics for 50 AUD. While the Phoenix Guard/White Lions are coming out for 69 AUD (65 USD/42 Pounds on the conversion) I definatly think that GW is giving us the short end of the stick in the land down under, but enough ranting for one post......
I have personally taken more and more rank and file troops in the new enviroment and less cav, relying on actually having superior numbers (I can hear perople goinf WHAT....!?!?!?!?), putting up two 130 models on the field in a 2500 pt game. I have usually been taking automatically one unit of LSG (24 in a 6x4 formation) at this point level and complementing it with another 2 units of 20 spears. The remainder of my army has been any combination of 2x20 of swordmasters/phoenix guard and 2x12 units of White Lions. This has usually left me with about 800 pts to spend on bolt throwers and heroes....