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As you can probably guess im looking for opinions on Tiranoc Chariots. I agree that lion chariots are probably all round better (except for movement), but is there any role for TCs in our armies. Anyone got any experiance with them?
I have used LCs before in games but despite not hitting quite as hard, i like the look of TCs and might include 1-2 in a fun 1500pts list. However if theres a resounding "no" to the idea i might stay clear of them. Im stillin the embryo stageof my list, consisting (so far with the models i have,) of 18 Seaguard fc, 5 DP, and a mage. I also have some SM and archers kicking about somewhere but like i said,still playing about with uints.
Anyway bk to the point in question, TCs, anyone had much luck? and if so how well did they do/
They are much cheaper than the lion chariots. So if you don´t need the hitting power in only one model, they give you more versatility by using two chariots.
This point has been argued back and forth ever since the release of the new book. Chariots have always been a vastly overlooked part of the High Elf army, simply because there were two schools of thought: take infantry mage-lines, or take all cavalry with archer support. Chariots were too aggressive for mage-lines, and too slow for Cavalry armies. However, now that they are forcing infantry upon us, and moreover, forcing us to take those footsloggers into combat, the chariot is starting to become a more viable option. So what does that break down to?
For starters, Tirranocs are really competing for space in a very limited bracket- our Special choices. Including a few of these will chip away at our ability to field other greats, like Elite Infantry, Dragon Princes, SilverHelms, or Kitty Karts. Furthermore, you should usually take 2 TCs and field them as a 'unit', because they are far too light to be of any use alone. This clocks in at 170pts for the pair, which is enough for 10 SM/WL/PGs, a WLC, 5 DPs, or 10 SHs. But this doesn't mean that you shouldn't take them.
The Chariots and Infantry fill different roles on the battlefield (although you could counter-flank with Infantry) so there's no point in really comparing the two.
TCs and WLCs are a huge argument, but in my opinion, I'd almost rather have the pair of TCs. They have more combined wounds, do more damage on impact, and they present the enemy with 2 targets to fire at instead of 1 (he'll need atleast 2 cannons to knock out your charioteers). The Kitty Kart isn't bad, in fact, if I were told that I had to have one and only one chariot, I'd go with the WLC. But the WLC is vastly overpriced. At the end of the day, it's still elf-ware, so it suffers from a low toughness and save, and now that Fear has been nerfed, it's paying too much for that as well. A pair of TCs is more flexible and a better use of the points in my opinion.
So what about the Cavalry? Well, it depends on what you're looking for in your list. Elf cavalry is more akin to the WLC- it's a single regiment, and it's a pricey one. It's better than the WLC, just because it can do more damage on the charge (if you get really stuck in with a Chariot or Cavalry, you may as well scoop the unit and save time), and has more wounds and better range, the ability to grab a banner, better armor, and in the case of the DPs, they can cart around magic items that you don't want to load onto characters.
The difference though is in 'degradation'. Take a DP for instance- every wound the unit takes, removes 2 attacks from it's profile. The chariot is either hitting at full strength, or it's dead. Furthermore, Chariots are cheaper (especially the TC), so there's less harm in sending them in to do jobs that you wouldn't normally use your cavalry for. Because of their price, there's more pressure to "make back" your points with cavalry, but with a Chariot that costs less than 100pts, charging it into some onrushing Fast Cavalry isn't as much of a waste.
This comes together to make Chariots good at guarding flanks. Cavalry can do the same job, but they're more expensive. Cavalry hit harder, but if you're already engaged, the impact hits and mounted spears should be enough help from your Chariot.
In your lists, I would really look at swapping out the WLC for a pair of Tirranocs, and then swapping your DPs for some elite infantry. It's a somewhat more static army, but it will put more units on the field, and it will work better as a cohesive force (instead of your DPs riding off to battle and leaving your LSG in the dust).
-Sorry for the long post, I just wanted to share my thoughts on the subject. You might also want to check the stickied thread at the top of the HE forum, about 'just starting' type questions, there's a lot of good info in there as well.
Hmmm, some good points there.
I think with the dragon princes i was thinking a make up similar to an empire army with cheap knights to support my blocks, but at almost double the points unit for unit i dont think this build will do me much good. maybe in a bigger force il look at them.
As for the chariots, i might give them a go, but only after i have sorted out my block units. ( The way this thread is going i should maybe have chossen a better title.) The question now is which special unit do i want as a block. Phoenix guard are solid, White Lions heavy hitters, and Sword Masters meat grinders, all of which would be well supportedby charriots. The only exception i might make to take WLCs therefore is if i go for WLs and even then i may still go for TCs.
Thanks indeed to Captain Sarathai, and i will be taking a look at the "getting started" thread.
Hmm... 1500pts is a little low for what I'm used to. But as far as sorting out blocks of Elites?
PG always make a good anvil, and a good bunker for your mages. My personal favorite tactic (although quite shady) is to run a BSB with the Banner of the World Dragon to make the regiment immune to spell effects, and then use it to bunker down with Teclis and a L2 Shadow Mage with Folariath's Robes. According to the Warriors of Chaos FAQ, 'Lore Attributes' don't count as part of a spell's effect, so I can still swap the Shadow Sorc with either Teclis or the BSB.
If I swap for Teclis, I suddenly have a model in the unit who is immune to everything except magic weapons. If I swap for the BSB, I can still accept most challenges with the Ethereal, and I can use Lore of Life from Teclis to rebuild my PGs.
A simpler and less questionable tactic is simply to run a L4 with Folariath's Robes in the block, and the BSB with the BoD, making the mage almost unkillable.
PGs aren't as awesome as their Great-Weaponed counterparts however, so fielding them in less than 2k isn't adviseable, especially when you already have an "anvil" of LSG. I'd pick up small 6-10 man regiments of Elite Infantry. Depending on what you're facing off against, or most worried about, swap between SMs and WLs. The SMs are better for smashing hordes and heavily armored non-monsters (more attacks is usually better than +1S, thanks to some crazy math theories). Against monsters and shooters, or if you want to field a larger unit, you're better with WLs.
Run either unit on the flanks of your LSG block, and let the poor spears take the beating while your Elites catch a flank and win your combats. Ideally, every large block of elves should be supported by a smaller regiment of some kind of elites. This is where your TCs come into play. If you want to run a large block of Elite infantry in addition to your large block of LSG, you may want to look at taking Chariots in place of these small elite blocks. Since 2 chariots is roughly the same cost as two 5man regiments of elites, you're getting almost the same effect for a few less points. If the choice is between Chariots or nothing at all, you're better off with Chariots.
I could write books on Elf cavalry like your Dragon Princes, and their role in the army (I have a very old tactica floating around somewhere, from last edition) but I'll leave that for another time.