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Following up from Viktor's thread on unit formation I thought that I would ask a question of my own.
Do any of you have anything that you have tried in a game that has come off really well?
I don't really want things about choosing a list although that is certainly an element of it I am more looking for traps you have set that have worked particularly well. I know that it can be difficult to put things into words when describing situations or particular deployments or unit moves or whatever it happens to be but just do the best you can.
Some things that might be worth dscussing; Deployments that are flexible and keep the enemy guessing, how to keep mages and stuff safe, Dealing with enemy death stars, Creating a situation where you can get a flank or rear charge, even if you have just thought that it might work but the situation has never arisen put it down.
Please try and refrain from calling people's ideas bad but I think disagreeing is healthy and want to encourage some debate but keep it civil.
Anyway I will get us started,
Fleeing with units like Silverhelms, Eagles and Reavers.
Failed charges in this game are amazingly slow normally, you only move the lowest roll on the dice so putting a fleet unit in a position to be charged and then fleeing although risky can be an effective way to slow down a flank. Sometimes more effective though is not to flee but take the charge and force a decision after you lose combat, reform or pursue this can be used to return an element of control to us. You now know the direction the unit is facing you only need to consider, where will the overrun take them, what if they reform.
An eagle with 3 wounds on a narrow frontage charging in the rear (or flank) of a unit will normally survive the first round of combat and lose the combat by enough to flee, this puts your opponent with a decision to make of pursue the eagle, or let it go and live to harass some more. While this is an easy decision to make the more we force our opponents to think and chose the more likely they are to make a mistake. This same thing can be done with a unit of cavalry like Silverhelms or Dragon Princes, but not Reaver (they will probably all die). The decision is more difficult for your enemy then but the risk to you is greater as the points on the line are substantially more.
Can't wait to hear your ideas and tricks.
Wow, I am surprised that this thread has not had any replies to it......
A little tactic that I have tried twice now has proven useful but may not be everyone's cup of tea. Its a tactic I have borrowed off of my crafty, dirty, scheming friends of the under empire, though not as cheap for us to do its still proving helpful. This tactic has to do with the deployment of Eagles. Now since the introduction of 8th edition I have found myself taking RBT's less and less and I find myself now running 4 eagles in a 2000 pt list. Crazy and a little weird you might say but there is a method to my madness. Now what I do is deploy my Eagles FIRST. This allows me to have 4 deployments without giving away anything tactically to my opponent. I deploy the Eagles 6" from the table edge so I can easily fit my other units in front of them without them interfering with my deployments or hampering my blocks of warriors in my first turn. With their 20" flying moves you can easily reposition them where you need to. I usually spread them evenly across the table but you don't have to do this (I just feel it makes it harder for your opponent to effectively deploy), or you could deploy them closer together and try and convince you opponent that you might deploy your more prized units around them. I have never ran my eagles in mass out in front of my army until I need to, waiting until my enemy is in charge range so I can use them as Allonairre has stated above.
This is not the most dirtiest trick I have seen but it is certainly helpful in placing you units where they need to be. With running all of these Eagles you will more then likely give up the first turn and if you don't want that to automatically happen and have 25 pts to spare take the Skeinsliver.
Warhammer Armies: High Elves, Tomb Kings, Daemons of Chaos
Warhammer 40k Armies: Chaos Daemons
Bloodbowl Teams: Mean Machine (Dwarves)
That's a good one Shadow King! I think though that such a tactic can be effectively pulled off with other units as well: small blocks of Archers, RBTs, Ellyrion Reavers. Archers have a good range and can fire on the move, so even if they're not exactly where you need them they can go there while shooting. Plus they're not the most important unit of your list (hopefully) and you don't build plans revolving around one unit of 10 Archers (if you do that might be interesting though, so please share! ). Reavers are, like Eagles, very fast (and let's not forget the vanguard move! Basicly at the beginning of your turn two they're 30" from where they had been deployed. Me likes!). The 48" range of RBTs ensures they have something to shoot in 99% of the cases (not taking into consideration intervening obstacles and the like, ofcourse), so their deployment is not that crucial.
Maybe Silver Helms and Dragon Princes could fit in this category to some degree, being cavalry.
On another forum I also read an interesting way of deploying a refused flank. I haven't tried it myself so I don't know how well it works, but here it goes.
It's basicly trying to fool your enemy: say you want to deploy a refused flank, concentrating your important units on the right flank. If you manage to have your opponent think you're committing to the left also, that would force him to put some units of his own to counter you there. In that scenario you'd hopefully be able to concentrate your forces on smaller sections of his/her army at a time, giving you a greater probability of winning combat with less losses on your side.
Anyway, it basicly consists in deploying a RBT on the far LEFT flank. This way it will be a little more annoying: in the end you'll commit heavily on the right, so the enemy has either to send something its way to deal with it (and that takes a while, practically meaning that his/her unit can be away from the main action for at least two turns) or just ignore it, hopefully giving you an opportunity for a couple flank shots.
Then something juicier roughly in the middle (say your 35 Spearmen, but I think that for our purposes here it works with anything else - PG, WL, SM...just pick yours!), to act as a left flank of your main force while still keeping your opponent guessing.
Eagles, who in any case tend not to give away your intentions due to their mobility, come next. Same for Reavers if you have any. I'd spread evenly in order to keep the opponent guessing (see a theme here? )
You might then deploy a unit of cavalry (optional, although I think it could work) and a unit of Archers left of your central block. Archers harass things and cavalry could dash for flanks/missle troops/machines and the likes.
Now from left to right your field probably looks something like this:
-RBT in your left corner;
-DPs or other cavalry in front of it (optional);
-some space, normally enough to potentially fit a big nasty unit of elites (hopefully what your opponent thinks you'll do!). Perhaps an Eagle somewhere here;
-a small unit of Archers;
-a threatening unit in the middle;
-another Eagle somewhere.
That's six drops. By now your opponent has probably committed something, and so you can decide how to better place your most important units.
I'm very curious to try this as soon as I return home. Does it make any sense to you guys?
Last edited by LoreSeeker; November 16th, 2011 at 17:50.
My project log: High Elves (and other stuff actually, but mainly High Elves).
Last update 1 Sept 2011
They are both good ideas in sort of the same vein. Both are about trying to manage enemy deployment so that you get to pick the match ups.
A couple of questions back
4 eagles is a fair chunk of points for elves, seems to me that people could view this as a bit of a waste, how do you use the eagles after deplyment to make sure that they are not a liability. Personally I think that deployment is less important than it used to be because of the reduced impact of terrain, greater charge distances and true line of Sight.
Please let us know how it goes when you do get around to trying it.
These 2 obviously play lists fairly similar to my own, how do people who play hordes manage to get the right fights. That is my biggest concern with a few large units, how do you prevent yourself being led a merry dance and people taking the initiative off you from deployment. Making your SM fight massive core units (Marauders for instance) while your Spears get mauled by smaller elite units (Chaos Warriors or knights or monsters)
Well I can say that I would love to see more out of this thread personally. I just recently purchased my high elf army and was really looking forward to learning some juicy tactics from veteran layers. I really like loreseekers tactic.
I have not played a game with them yet but let me chime in (keep in mind I have layed 40k for about 10 years now). I have 2 IoB high elf sets(and an additional 10 SM's I aquired), and the battalion box set. When I get to play my first game I see my deployment going something like this:
Deploying the Bolt thrower obviously in a posion that maximizes its range and LOS. Preferably like loreseeker was getting at, to the left or right side of the deloyment zone. The archers would then be set up to the opposite side. In my mind I cause a sort of choke point of fire power in the middle of the battle field. Next the spearman and sea guard offset to side of the archer. Then deloying the charriot on the side of the bolt thrower. Next would be the Reavers(unit of 10), also set up to the side nearest the bolt thrower. After that the SM's (in 2 units of 15) spread evenly between the RBT and Archers. Followed by one mage close to the archer side, one mage close the RBT side, and the Lord on Griffon wherever I feel he will best fit at.
Basiccally in my mind I see it working like this. The bolt thrower can stay in range longer if my opponent decides to go toward my archer side for easy kill points. There will be enough speed on the other side witht the charriot and reavers to catch a flank in the process as well. If they migrate away from the archers, there will be enough speed to deivert them back into the the direction of the Archers. The spearman, sea guard, and SM's will then engage the enemy obviously lol. They will will be a little eavier on the archer side so I hope to bait one of my opponent units into combat then catch a flank with my Lord, or a unit of SM's.
So Having not played a game before, I have no idea if this will work but that is what I am goign to try my first game I play here in a couple weeks. I will let you guys know how it goes after it happens!
Kendo's DA's, Eldar, and stuff WIP
Dark Angels: W-22 D-4 L-5 High Elves W-8 L-1
here (2000 & 2500 pt list, Support for tactical thread topic). Please do not discuss my list/s here, it is the reason why I have created a separate thread for them.
Answering @Allonairre 's question, after deployment the eagles are used in two ways. Firstly as mentioned in my earlier post, the eagles on the out most flanks of my army are usually run straight ahead to deter any fast cav from coming down my flanks, but no more then halfway across the battlefield. If there are no fast cav then they are in a good position next turn to fly directly infront of an enemy unit to force it to charge. When doing this place the eagle just inside a 45 degree angle so that the enemy unit will be forced to expose their flank on the charge. Now if this happens and there are no other likely targets for the enemy unit to re-direct their charge into, make the eagle flee from the combat, forcing your opponent to try and chase and bringing that flank charge closer to your lines (NOTE - a unit cannot re-direct a charge if their are no suitable targets for it to charge).
For the other eagles that are deployed more centrally on the battlefield, keep them close to your main lines (usually either directly next to or behind your blocks of infantry) but make sure they do not hamper your movement. As you enemy gets into charge range through the eagles out into the open similar to the ones on the flank, turing them on an angle to expose flanks (basically putting them on a footing where you want them). Be sure to keep your eagles inside your own charging range as you will most likely charge in on your following turn. Usually you would want to HOLD as a charge reaction as a re-direct might bring them into your main lines which is not what you want at this stage, you want to be doing all of the charging and not being the one charged.
In both circumstances if the eagles get into combat and there are characters in the unit, have the eagle allocate their attacks against them, if the eagle doesn't take them out (and they are not likely to but I have gotten lucky on occasions, 2x WS5, S4 attacks isn't too shabby for a birdy) it will certainly soften them up for the next combat phase when you charge in. Also by forcing your enemies to charge it will stagger their lines and pull units out of position, meaning that more often enough it will take your opponent an extra turn to get their units into combat where they need them and also means that we are only in combat with usually one unit and not two or three.
This tactica is by not means fool proof, it has taken alot of trial and error to build a list that has the right feel for me to be able to do this. There are several tactica articles out there in how to use eagles and other monsterous units in the game and I suggest giving them a look over as well.
Last edited by The Shadow King; November 18th, 2011 at 02:29.
Warhammer Armies: High Elves, Tomb Kings, Daemons of Chaos
Warhammer 40k Armies: Chaos Daemons
Bloodbowl Teams: Mean Machine (Dwarves)
To flee should look like this
. . . . . . . . x (eagle in sight but to charge the unit must Wheel, or ignore the eagle and give away the flank which makes people hesitant)
To hold should look like, it could be off to the side but this is normally used very close to your other units so often better if the eagle can't be ignored.
. . . . . .<> (imagine that is a square eagle base that the unit will align too)
Behold the mighty text pictures and feel enlightened and not even a bit confused
I've always been a bit wary of the intentional overrun bait like Eagles (or Hounds in a WoC army) because a lot of times, the enemy is going to blast right through that unit, and/or they'll just redirect the charge onto another unit. I know it's cheesy, but I usually go for the long shot and try to redirect onto the unit they planned on flanking me with. Remember, you can declare with you are within 12+M of the target, which is a pretty long distance. At least that way when I fail, I'm still pointing towards the larger threat. Basically, it was a good tactic in 7th, but 8th has nerfed it a bit.
The refused flank you mention Loreseeker is actually something I brought up in my old HE Cav tactica. Back in 7th when we were all running 2 blocks of 10 archers to fill out the minimum "Core" of our Cavalry armies, people were trying to figure out what to do with them. Usually the plan was to plan something big and juicy, or just downright irritating (in the case of archers and/or BS on one flank, and then force the enemy to either charge after them and expose his army's flank to our faster units, or let 200-400pts just sit around and pester him all game.
HE can turtle-up too, just like Dwarfs, but we sort of lack the appropriate units to just hold that corner. We have the anti-magic to stack our units in close and not have much to fear from template-spells and vortexes, so there's no reason why you couldn't (or shouldn't) deploy your entire army so that it is hugging one board edge. I liked to run my armies in a symetrical format, so that both of my flanks are equally covered and I don't present any weaknesses to my enemy. However, if you deploy with one flank touching the board edge, you don't really need to defend it, and you can spend the points that you'd normally spend on "the mirrored side" of your army, on other fun goodies.
My personal favorite though is actually my Scout-Fast list. It's not competitive (although I've definitely won more games that I ever had a right to with it), but I've been known to pop an Alith-Aenar army onto the table. Basically, two or three units of 10 Shadow Warriors, and then back them up with Reavers and/or SHs/DPs. And then my minimum core is a block or two of LSG. There's also another character usually rocking Shadow Armor and some CC abilities, or Bow of the Seafarer or ReaverBow, deploying in a SW unit away from Alith. The plan is to put the SWs right on top of the enemy, forcing him to commit to them - preferably drawing him through terrain or otherwise disrupting his battle lines. The FastCav rule for the ERs is actually ok, because it lets me get more units onto their starting line, which can be very frustrating. Most people see the easy win and start charging without thinking anything through. I obviously flee, or hold if I have backup nearby (SWs aren't bad, they're just overpriced, especially in comparison to Shades or our other Specials) and then tear into the foe. It's actually worked in the past, and I've netted wins, but you have to play a very cutthroat game to make it work, and it doesn't hold up at all in tournament settings. It's just a fun list/tactic to change up your weekly grind.