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Thinking of starting HE and one of my favourite models is the lion chariot. Can anyone say how effective they are? My plan was to run two and attempt multi charges so they didn't get swamped. I hardly see any in the lists I've been looking at so I'm starting to doubt them. Don't actually own the book as yet so I'm also pretty limited in my knowledge of their actual capability
They certainly pack a lot of punch onto a small base. They are a fun addition to an army and can make a contribution.
That said they are in no way points effecient, its difficult to justify 1 in an army let alone 2. If you want to run with an extra then go with a tiranoc chariot.
Pros are that with 4 S5 attacks and 2 S6 they do hit hard in the second an third rounds meaning they can be justified over DP.
They provide a flank bonus and prevent reforming (if in a flank)
Cons They cost way too much for 4 wounds at T4 with a 4+ armour save
They are a priority target (this can be a pro as it forces your enemy to split their shooting)
I like Lion Chariots though, they are fun and do look cool.
Thanks for the reply and I see what you mean about their points, I didn't realise how much cheaper tiranoc chariots were but I guess your paying for the staying power in the form of the lions attacks? I definitely agree that they (or it) will draw fire but like you said with the proper tactics this can be a positive. I would never take Lion chariots and DPs just because I understand how crucial our special choice infantry is and they would essentially serve the same purpose anyway, that of flankers and support chargers. The reason I suggested two was to use them in a different role of actually being shock troops that can dual charge and have a chance of breaking less elite units without support but now that I think about it that wouldn't even be the greatest idea. Were I to take two I would probably deploy them on either flank to support two small units of SMs. Thoughts?
PS rep for your helpful reply
Haha, the old Kitty Kart. I think I was probably the first person to launch the pogrom against these things. I played an all-cavalry list a while back, and even when we had our book in 7th I played a charioteer's army. However, the Kart never really had a place in any of those, and now that we're in 8th, he certainly has no place there.
If you play similarly to how I do, your Swordmaster units are working on the flanks of your Spears or Seaguard, intercepting small units of enemy flankers, and counter-flanking the enemy engaged against your Spears. It's a very useful tactic. I've kept Tirannoc chariots or a thin line of 5 DPs behind the lines to make sure that my enemy didn't use his flankers to distract my Swordmasters and buy time to kill my spears. But, I found that my opponent would usually just charge headlong at whichever unit was closest, leaving my 150pts of "backup" sitting on the sidelines.
If you're going to run Lion Chariots, they should go right in the heart of your army, where they can charge out and blast tough enemy units as they reach your lines. They can also make a difference if you need to win a combat but don't have any Swordmasters to throw at it. But like Allonaire and I have pointed out - Dragon Princes have more wounds and a better save, Tirannocs are cheaper, and more Swordmasters are optimal, so there's no reason to field a Kart in that role anyways.
Wow, I honestly did not remember reading that bit about needing the two ranks in order to disrupt the rank bonus. That is really terrible. Does cavalry not count as "unit strength of 2" anymore? I mean, horse and rider equal two models, and the base IS roughly the size of two ranks... And similarly terrible is the note that they have to be 5 wide? I sure hope that they address this with an errata or something, because that seems a little silly.
Then again, maybe I don't need to worry about it so much with Dragon Princes, because 11 attacks should cause some extra wounds on top of the flanking +1 anyway...
EDIT: I'd like to throw in there that there IS one troop in the army list that I would never, EVER field.. Silver Helms! At 23 points each, I'd much rather add 7 points per model to give them Dragon Armor and an extra attack.
Now, I see that people don't like to run HE Princes, which makes sense due to the low toughness... but if you wanted to run a strong character, couldn't you just quite easily run a lvl 2 Mage with the Seerstaff and Lore of Beasts? Giving your Lord +3 Strength and +3 Attacks, or +1 Strength and +1 Toughness would certainly go a long way to making your Star Lance-wielding Lord on a griffin/dragon a force to be reckoned with, I'd say. Sure you have to dedicate a mage to making it happen, but at the same time, you could consider that an extension of his 100 points, right?
What do you guys think?
Last edited by BallsOfSteel; February 11th, 2012 at 22:26.
Not sure this is the right thread Balls of Steel,
I am still a fan of Beasts lore as I am quite controlling in my mentally when I approach a list. So since the base spell is one that I would use often then once Silverwand on AM using life and Seerstaff on L2 mage for specific spells is gone this is a useful lore to go too. 3 mages is seldom needed though but you could drop the seerstaff on the second mage easily that way.
Silverhelms actually got marginally better in the new rules as needing the additional ranks to break ranks but only contributing 1 attack from rear ranks means that you are paying more for attacks that you aren't going to use with Dragon Princes. Since neither unit (fielded as 10) is really going to be able to wipe infantry units out in a single round of combat, as needed for our epic S3 knights, the enemy is going to be steadfast which means that they will still be in combat in round 2 and our cavalry will be bogged down forever. Even if you do disrupt rank bonus by flanking steadfast still works so enemy can reform easily to face you in round 2. Since neither unit is going to be amazing it is easier to go with Silverhelms, although I do agree that they are overpriced for what they do.
Yikes! I actually did get a little confused (that's what I get for having four threads open in different tabs on my browser). How embarrassing... On topic, I do like Lion Chariots, but perhaps the chariots' biggest strength is that you can break rank bonuses at 85 points with a Tiranoc Chariot, which you can't do any cheaper in the High Elf list. So that might be a cool tactic for smaller games.
And that's a good point regarding the Silver Helms. That gives you 70 or so extra points to do with as you please. But personally... I just love my DP way more than the Silver Helms. Maybe if our 4th Edition Silver Helms got an update, my mind would change... But I do still feel they are overpriced, too. So yeah.
So what is the general consensus, regarding the efficiency of these units? That Swordmasters seem to be the bread-and-butter killing/flanking unit?
No, you cannot break rank bonuses with a Chariot. The BRB is pretty specific, you need two complete ranks to negate an enemy rank bonus.
The way I view Silver Helms is that you can send in 10 of of them more cheaply than Dragon Princes. Neither unit should be working off on it's own, as they're not Chaos Knights or Blood Knights with layers of extra survivability. Still, they're both too expensive for the role and I typically pass on them.
Strategically speaking, the Elves use two units in conjunction to win their games - Spearmen, and Swordmasters. The Spearman is the cheapest, most easily sacrificed unit in our book. Although Phoenix Guard can fulfill the same role, they don't take up core requirements and the benefit of their 4+ Ward and S4 is offset by their lack of ranks (and fact that you still have 25% of Spearmen standing somewhere anyways). The Swordmasters on the other hand are our best option for small, 3-rank units of 15-18 models. Their 2A up front actually offsets the 1pt of Strength that they lose over White Lions, although the two are very close. The fact is, the Swordmasters are the unit of choice for laying down a TON of damage in a short amount of time, and when charged into the flank of any enemy already facing Spearmen, they can usually break combat in a hurry.
The fact is, we don't need fast units anymore. Cavalry is going the way of the dinosaur in most armies, and those who do field them don't field them with enough regularity to force an "air superiority" type fight. In previous editions, Cavalry was used like a fighter jet, and as the game evolved you would see cavalry-to-cavalry duels across the table, with any infantry present standing by as unfortunate targets of opportunity - they couldn't catch the cavalry, and even if they did they had to charge it if they wanted any chance of winning.
The people who field cavalry now either use them as shock troops (ours are too overpriced for that) or to intercept enemy flanking units. We can do the latter with our Chariots, and that is their role. D6 Impact Hits plus the initial round of attacks will see off almost anything short of a main-line regiment. Our Swordmasters shouldn't be tied up dealing with Warhounds, Dire Wolves, Goblin Wolf Riders, Empire Detachments, and the likes. Instead, we send in a Chariot to bust up the smaller unit and buy time for the Swordmasters to charge in alongside Spearmen and win us some hefty VPs against a big unit.
Oh, silly me, I thought I read somewhere you could cause disruption with chariots. Maybe that was back in 7th edition. But that is a very neat use of chariots. I never thought of using them for anti-flanking, but that does make perfect sense. Thanks for the tips!