If you were writing our army book what would you do

[rothgar13]

All right, so, as promised, here's my summary of how High Elves would look like if I was writing the book:

Core:

Ellyrion Reavers
Reaver: M 5, WS 4, BS 4, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 5, A 1, Ld 8
Elven Steed: M 9, WS 3, BS 0, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 4, A 1, Ld 5.
Special Rules: Fast Cavalry, Valor of Ages.
Equipment: Bow, Elven Steed, Hand Weapon, Light Armor.
Unit Size: 5+
Cost: 15 points/model.
Upgrade Options: Shields (+1 points/model), Spears (+1 points/model).
Command Options: Harbinger (+1 BS) for +10 points, Musician for +10 points, Standard-Bearer for +10 points.

High Elf Archers
M 5, WS 3, BS 4, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 5, A 1, Ld 7
Special Rules: Valor of Ages.
Equipment: Hand Weapon, Longbow.
Unit Size: 10+
Cost: 6 points/model.
Command Options: Hawkeye (+1 BS) for +10 points, Musician for +10 points, Standard-Bearer for +10 points

High Elf Militia
M 5, WS 4, BS 4, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 5, A 1, Ld 8
Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valor of Ages.
Equipment: Hand Weapon, Light Armor.
Unit Size: 10+
Cost: 7 points/model.
Upgrade Options (must choose at least one): Additional Hand Weapons (+1 points/model), Halberds (+2 points/model), Shields (+1 points/model), Spears (free swap).
Command Options: Sentinel (+1 A) for +10 points, Musician for +10 points, Standard-Bearer for +10 points.

Lothern Sea Guard
M 5, WS 4, BS 4, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 5, A 1, Ld 8
Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valor of Ages.
Equipment: Bow, Hand Weapon, Light Armor.
Unit Size: 10+
Cost: 8 points/model.
Upgrade Options: Longbow (+1 points/model), Shields (+1 points/model), Spear (free swap).
Command Options: Sea Master (+1 A) for +10 points, Musician for +10 points, Standard-Bearer for +10 points.

Special:

Lion Chariot of Chrace
Chariot: M -, WS -, BS -, S 5, T 4, W 4, I -, A -, Ld -
Crew: M -, WS 5, BS 4, S 4, T - , W -, I 5, A 1, Ld 8
War Lions: M 8, WS 5, BS -, S 5, T -, W -, I 4, A 2, Ld -
Special Rules: Chariot (Armor Save 4+), Fear, Valor of Ages.
Equipment (Crew): Great Weapon, Hand Weapon.
Unit Size: 1 Chariot, drawn by 2 War Lions and with 2 White Lion Crew.
Cost: 120 points/model.

Phoenix Guard
M 5, WS 5, BS 4, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 6, A 1, Ld 9
Special Rules: Immune to Psychology, Ward Save (4+).
Equipment: Halberd, Heavy Armor.
Unit Size: 5+
Cost: 15 points/model.
Upgrade Options: Keeper of the Flame may carry a Magic Item of up to 25 points, Standard-Bearer may carry a Magic Standard of up to 50 points.
Command Options: Keeper of the Flame (+1 A) for +10 points, Musician for +10 points, Standard-Bearer for +10 points.

Shadow Warriors
M 5, WS 5, BS 5, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 5, A 1, Ld 8
Special Rules: Nagarythe Hatred, Scout, Skirmish, Valor of Ages.
Equipment: Hand Weapon, Light Armor, Longbow.
Cost: 16 points/model.
Upgrade Options: Additional Hand Weapons (+1 points/model).
Command Options: Shadow-Walker (+1 A) for +10 points.

Silver Helms
Silver Helm: M 5, WS 5, BS 4, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 5, A 1, Ld 8
Elven Steed: M 9, WS 3, BS 0, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 4, A 1, Ld 5
Special Rules: Devastating Charge, Valor of Ages.
Equipment: Barded Elven Steed, Heavy Armor, Lance, Shield.
Unit Size: 5+
Cost: 25 points/model.
Upgrade Options: Standard-Bearer may carry a Magic Standard of up to 50 points.
Command Options: High Helm (+1 A) for +10 points, Musician for +10 points, Standard-Bearer for +10 points.

Sword Masters of Hoeth
M 5, WS 6, BS 4, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 5, A 2, Ld 8
Special Rules: Speed of Asuryan, Valor of Ages.
Equipment: Great Weapon, Heavy Armor.
Unit Size: 5+
Cost: 15 points/model.
Upgrade Options: Tower Master may carry a Magic Item of up to 25 points, Standard-Bearer may carry a Magic Standard of up to 50 points.
Command Options: Tower Master (+1 A) for +10 points, Musician for +10 points, Standard-Bearer for +10 points.

Tiranoc Chariot
Chariot: M -, WS -, BS -, S 5, T 4, W 4, I -, A -, Ld -
Crew: M -, WS 4, BS 4, S 3, T - , W -, I 5, A 1, Ld 8
Elven Steed: M 9, WS 3, BS -, S 3, T -, W -, I 4, A 1, Ld -
Special Rules: Chariot (Armor Save 5+), Valor of Ages.
Equipment (Crew): Bow, Hand Weapon, Spear.
Unit Size: 1 Chariot, drawn by 2 Elven Steeds and with 2 Elf Crew.
Cost: 60 points/model.

White Lions of Chrace
M 5, WS 5, BS 4, S 4, T 3, W 1, I 5, A 1, Ld 8
Special Rules: Stubborn, Valor of Ages.
Equipment: Great Weapon, Heavy Armor, Lion Cloak (+1 armor save in close combat, +2 armor save against shooting).
Unit Size: 5+
Cost: 13 points/model.
Upgrade Options: Guardian may carry a Magic Item of up to 25 points, Standard-Bearer may carry a Magic Standard of up to 50 points.
Command Options: Guardian (+1 A) for +10 points, Musician for +10 points, Standard-Bearer for +10 points.

Rare:

Dragon Princes of Caledor
Dragon Prince: M 5, WS 6, BS 4, S 4, T 3, W 1, I 6, A 2, Ld 9
Elven Steed: M 9, WS 3, BS 0, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 4, A 1, Ld 5.
Special Rules: Immune to Psychology.
Equipment: Barded Elven Steed, Dragon Armor (Heavy Armor, 2+ Ward Save against Flaming Attacks), Lance, Shield.
Unit Size: 5+
Cost: 35 points/model.
Upgrade Options: Drakemaster may carry a Magic Item of up to 25 points, Standard-Bearer may carry a Magic Standard of up to 50 points.
Command Options: Drakemaster (+1 A) for +10 points, Musician for +10 points, Standard-Bearer for +10 points.

Great Eagle
M 2, WS 5, BS 0, S 4, T 4, W 3, I 4, A 2, Ld 8
Special Rules: Fly.
Equipment: Talons (Hand Weapon).
Unit Size: 1.
Cost: 50 points/model.

Repeater Bolt Thrower
Bolt Thrower: M -, WS -, BS -, S -, T 7, W 2, I -, A -, Ld -
Crew: M 5, WS 4, BS 4, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 5, A 1, Ld 8
Special Rules: Valor of Ages, Volley.
Unit Size: 1 Bolt Thrower and 2 Crew.
Equipment (Crew): Hand Weapon, Light Armor.
Cost: 50 points/model.
Upgrade Options: May add up to 2 additional Crew (+10 points/model).

I'll work on characters next. I think this Honors system is a pretty good idea, so I'll write up some sample Honors and post them up. Let me know what you think!

[Xanthippus]

I like the look of it! My only notable reservations would relate to our slightly different views about what to do with spearmen (heavy armor option but no halberds) and reavers (option for spear, bow or both with A2 for harbinger).

I'm curious about a few of your changes.
Why do you have the shield option for reavers? I thought you wanted to keep them as classic fast cavalry and the classic fast cavalry save is 5+? Shields could be cool though and set them up more as militia cavalry.

What is your reasoning with the universal 10 pt cost for command soldiers? It would make core command more expensive but cutting costs with elites could be a good thing. I'm not sure it is proportional to what is gained (an extra attack on a tower master should go further than an extra attack on a sentinel.)

Would Martial prowess only apply to spear options or to any of them?

What are your thoughts behind increasing the unit size requirement for PG, SM and WL? I know a few people like to use SM especially in groups of 5 as flankers.

That's a huge point cut in the RBT. I would lean more towards increasing its abilities. Any thoughts on BS 5 for the crew or boosting the bolts in the volley?

Longbows for seaguard is an especially nice touch!

I'm looking forward to see what you do with the heroes.

[rothgar13]

OK, I'll provide some explanations and reasoning for the things I've written.

Command is just following the standard for all new 8e books. All of them have fixed command prices.

Ellyrian Reavers getting the option for Shields was in large part inspired by Goblin Wolf Riders. If a bloody Gobbo can get a 4+ save as Fast Cav, you can bet your arse that I'll give High Elves the option to do it.

Martial Prowess I would re-write to be available for all weapons. That's the reason Spears are a free swap (well, that and the fact that they are arguably the weakest weapon choice in the game for S3 infantry), and why Halberds are as expensive as they are (a free rank of WS4 S4 attacks is a pretty powerful benefit).

I could be talked into lowering the minimum size for the Big 3 elites - I just didn't think it'd make much of an impact. I don't see people use blocks of 5 Swordmasters outside of VERY small point games (like 1500 or less).

I'm admittedly at a bit of a loss as to what I should do with the RBT - it's probably not getting a new kit, so it's stuck at 2 Wounds. With that in mind, you can't really load up on upgrades, because it's still going to be incredibly fragile, and if you hike the price up too much (aka anywhere near what it is now), it's not worth it. It may be the thing I'm least solid on in the entire list.

Honors are going to be tricky. I'm going to try and add some regional flavor to the characters, but I think the temptation to make a character version of every unit isn't something that's very original, so I'll try to innovate a bit in that regard.

[Xanthippus]

Thanks for the run through. Those choices make a lot of sense now.

What about lowering RBTs to say 65 points and then providing an option to assign them a guard detachment (similar to the empire) of one rank of 4 LSG that could fight to protect the RBT? This would fit with the fluff since RBTs are manned by LSG. The LSG could automatically defend to any ONE side of the RBT (regardless of their initial placement next to it) and respond with a stand and shoot when the RBT was charged. They would also be able to shoot regularly but would not be able to charge.

Unless the RBT was attacked from two sides the guard detachment would have to be eliminated as if they were a separate unit before the RBT could be attacked. While being defended by the detachment the RBT would still be able to fire in any direction, except to the side the LSG were defending, with a -1BS penalty since they would be nervous that they are about to be killed. If the detachment panicked they would be automatically eliminated. The RBT crew, however, would panic and fight separately. Hits from shooting attacks would be randomized between the crew and the detachment.

LSG with hand weapons and shields would work well as a detachment. According to the system you set up an RBT with this detachment would cost 101 points.

[BallsOfSteel]

I really only have a couple minor differences on how I would like to see our army book revised. I'm going to go ahead and start with the biggest one. I just don't see how the Silver Helms can stay a special choice and not be too much like the Dragon Princes. Even with devastating charge (a good idea, I think), I don't see how they would be fielded when you can just take Sword Masters. Especially at 25 points, I don't think I would ever field them. They're essentially sword masters that stop being sword masters after the charge. Paying 10 points for some extra armor and movement just doesn't feel right for me. I would much rather see them go back to being the high elves' Empire Knights. Make them regular elves on horses and give them heavy armor, but keep them cheap. That way they can fill the role of fast disrupters that won't collapse under arrow fire.

As for the militia, I don't see the point of offering the extra hand weapon and shields as upgrade options. I would never use the XHW when the spears would allow for just as many extra attacks as well as let them use a shield. I say HW, light armor and shield as regular kit. I do love the spear/Halberd options though. I could even see halberds being affected by martial prowess since they are also polearms.

Sea guard could maybe have a heavy armor upgrade, though. But I say that only because of their fluff as a standing army corps; essentially the high elves marines. The argument against it because they're on boats doesn't make much sense, because any armor will sink you, not just full plate.

I do like almost all of your other ideas, though! Good suggestions!

[rothgar13]

XHW are actually mathematically superior to Spears offensively, because they let you get extra attacks while charging, and don't lose attacks when that fourth rank of guys starts going down (fifth if it's a Horde). That's why they cost points - because they transform the Elf Militia from a unit that stands there hoping to get charged into a unit that you want to actually attack with.

I can see what you're saying regarding Silver Helms, but that's really a problem that afflicts cavalry in general in 8th edition. You can't compare them to Swordmasters, because that's a mainline infantry unit. The goal of heavy cavalry now is to find a flank using their superior Movement, slam into it, and swing CR into your favor because they hit hard and don't get hit back. If you want disruption and annoyance, that's what Ellyrion Reavers do. I also don't think they're quite redundant with Dragon Princes because DP's are more of a old-school cavalry unit - they actually do have the muscle to take smaller enemy units head-on and expect to win. So, to summarize, here's what I see each of the cavalry units doing:

Ellyrion Reavers - annoyance, disruption, chaff/war machine hunting.

Silver Helms - hitting flanks, chaff/monster/war machine hunting.

Dragon Princes - hitting flanks on Hordes, smashing small or weakened enemy units, combo-charging with infantry.

As for the point regarding Repeaters... I like the concept, but it sounds very clunky. I think I'd edit it a bit and simply allow for the purchase of more crew as an upgrade option. As a matter of fact, I'll go ahead and add that.

[CaptainSarathai]

I like the ideas Rothgar. I think I'm going to layout my idea for the armylist in a separate thread, and link it back to this one.
There are some things in your list that I agree with, and others that I don't feel quite "sure" about. For example, Dual HW is something that was typically reserved for bloody-minded armies and the Dark Elves, it's not really a mark of grace in WHFB so much as a mark of "I don't care about blocking, I'd rather hack you to bits!".

Likewise, you dropped the Lions from the WLC? GW won't let that one fly, they have Lions in the kit and won't ever change them. All we can hope for as far as the Lions are concerned is that they don't spread to other parts of the army. Once they're in, they're in to stay.

I also don't like Reavers as Core, and I never will. Silver Helms have always been Core, Reavers have always been Special, and DPs are always Special or Rare. The High Elves have never been a hit-and-run army, or a very mobile army. The Dark Elves have Dark Riders to represent the fact that they're a raider-culture, whereas Wood Elves have FastCav Core to keep the feel of them being very flimsy and ambush oriented. High Elves have never resorted to those kinds of tactics, and thus Silver Helms have always been medium/heavy cavalry and were our Special - just like Empire Knights.

Ah well, back in a bit with my ideas.
http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...ml#post1900080 (Captain's 8th ed Armybook)

[rothgar13]

Right, I screwed up on the WLC. Those are supposed to be War Lions.

One could justify Silver Helms (as written in the real book, rules-wise) as Core, but I don't really get an "Elf" vibe from heavily armored cavalry. I'm not the biggest High Elf lore buff, though.

[BallsOfSteel]

The thing I like most about the High Elves in Warhammer is the fact that the High Elves are indeed a very militaristic people. They are very reminiscent of the old-school elves in Tolkien's Silmarillion. In particular, I get a very Fingolfin feel. Fingolfin was bad enough to challenge a god to single combat and wound him so often and so grievously that said god never came forth into the light of day again. GW's High Elves fought off the hordes of Chaos at their strongest. And they're constantly defending their homeland now from raids, full-on wars, and more. I definitely see them taking advantage of heavy cavalry!!

[rothgar13]

Fair enough. That's an easy change to make - Ellyrion Reavers go up to Special, Silver Helms get their stats and rules toned down and pushed down to Core.

As for the AHW's, Cap'n, consider that the Wood Elves get them. As a matter of fact, their most "graceful" unit (the Wardancers) gets them. AHW's are about offense, and grace is generally a more offensive style. Also, I took a peek at your version of the army - I like your version of Martial Prowess, and I will incorporate it. I also liked Fear on Dragon Princes.