If you were writing our army book what would you do

[Allonairre]

HE have always been a relatively settled army in terms of what is covered in the army book, possibly the biggest addition was the Lion Chariot and that was really a bolt from nowhere with next to no fluff on which to base the unit on.

As such the question is an obvious one, if you could rewrite the army book what would you add/change/drop?

New units, special rules, magic items, special characters etc.

It could be from a fluff perspective or a make it work perspective, but I am interested in anything that you think would make for a nice addition/alteration to the army book.

I am going to start with the thing that made me think of this in the first place,

I would like to be able to tailor my heroes to reflect the location that they came from. Similar to Bloodline Powers for Vampires, but a seperate allowance (non-magical allowance) that you can pay to have your Noble/Prince from certain areas of Ulthuan.

These are the ones that I would like
White Tower (Sword Master character)
Caledor (Dragon Prince/ Dragon Rider)
Chrace (White Lion/ Possibly monster handler of some description)
Shadow Lands (Scouting guy)
Ellyrion (Some kind of Expert Horseman rule)
The actual rules would take a bit of balancing but I would really like to be able to legally tailor regional heros particularly from themed army point of view. I really liked that about the 6 edition army book and was sad when it was gotten rid of. I would also like some similar magical abilities because although I am told we have dominant magic, it is to do with Teclis, Banner of Sorcery and Book of Hoeth, not the mages themselves, I would like our mages to reflect the overriding control and discipline that years of working with the ebb flow of the magical currents in the warhammer world has instilled in the race, as well as their natural abilities to weave the flows of magic.

Anyway this is not by any means the only thing that I would change but it would be where I would start. The main areas that I think need adjusting are to do with the internal balance of the book, Core currently serves (almost) no purpose that cannot be filled better elsewhere in the army and as such is seen more of a hindrance than a help in most lists. The disproportionate quality of the 3 special infantry that makes fielding much else a waste of points is also an issue to do with internal balance that I think needs to be addressed.

[Djones9916]

I like where your going with that. A regional general who confers a slight bonus if you stack your army from that region. Like say if you take a Prince from Chrace, and two or more white lion units, all your core choices get stubborn, or woodsmen, or some rule that gives them a chracey flavor.

[saltrock36]

First thing to go is the dragon mage. Was an ok idea at the time and was nice whne you took it in 1000pts with another mage, 2 units of 10 bowmen and 2 lion chariots, but now its now great.

Would also drop dragon types. No need to overcomplicate things. If we are to have different dragon types, i want 3 models of obvious different base size going from the new giant size base for things like the araknarok spider (star dragon), to current size (moon), to maybe a 50x50 (sun). And to go with them a massive alteration in strength and abilities, like the Carmine dragon from FW.

The best way i think to creat regional comanders is to have abilities like the Woodelf Kindreds (but obivously better), suited to each of the special regions, or a generic one like Inspiring presance of 18" due to leading all of ulthuan regions, and thus making that unit type core.

In fact the "Kindred" rule could be used for any character, allowing you to take two characters with the different region traits, making both types of unit core. Would certainly boost the core options. You would still have to pay for it in the higher points cost of the special units but in the long run would work.

[Allonairre]

I like where your going with that. A regional general who confers a slight bonus if you stack your army from that region. Like say if you take a Prince from Chrace, and two or more white lion units, all your core choices get stubborn, or woodsmen, or some rule that gives them a chracey flavor.

Hadn't thought of that but it could work, would make the characters insanely overpowered as the games got larger, but anything to make our squishy and under appreciated Princes and Nobles more viable would be a good thing.

First thing to go is the dragon mage. Was an ok idea at the time and was nice whne you took it in 1000pts with another mage, 2 units of 10 bowmen and 2 lion chariots, but now its now great.

Would also drop dragon types. No need to overcomplicate things. If we are to have different dragon types, i want 3 models of obvious different base size going from the new giant size base for things like the araknarok spider (star dragon), to current size (moon), to maybe a 50x50 (sun). And to go with them a massive alteration in strength and abilities, like the Carmine dragon from FW.

The best way i think to creat regional comanders is to have abilities like the Woodelf Kindreds (but obivously better), suited to each of the special regions, or a generic one like Inspiring presance of 18" due to leading all of ulthuan regions, and thus making that unit type core.

In fact the "Kindred" rule could be used for any character, allowing you to take two characters with the different region traits, making both types of unit core. Would certainly boost the core options. You would still have to pay for it in the higher points cost of the special units but in the long run would work.

Again shifting any of our specials (even a single unit of them to core seems to me to be too good) I would always take a WL or PG Noble and a horde of the relevant unit as my core choice. I agree with the principle in general though.

As to getting rid of the dragon mages and simplifying the Dragon's in general, I think that I agree. I think I would suggest having an unmounted Dragon as a rare option, much like a Hydra or Eagle. Possibly sell it with some kind psychic link to a handler unit that is also somewhere on the table.

I am really struggling to come up with ways to balance spearmen and Seaguard with our special infantry at the moment, although I do have heaps of ideas for our special choices, figures really doesn't it.

I would love for a SM champion to be a L1 mage instead of gaining the extra attack, even if he were fixed to a specific lore or spell (like horrors), it would be cool. Actually I think that our princes gaining the ability to become low level casters (while retaining armour and magical equipment allowances) would help to give them more of a place in an army, as a low level mage that can fight as well. This doesn't really fit with the single naturedness that elves are supposed to pursue a career but would be a fairly easy sell fluffwise.

I also think that Phoenix Guard should be rare, they are they only present in a single place on Ulthuan and only have one job, Protect Shrine of Asuryan. I love their fluff and the models but think that putting them in special is too much. They are defenitely rare units. You can make a similar argument for Silver Helms vs Dragon Princes, but Dragon Princes are in the right place and Silver Helms should be moved back to Core with the proviso of being a 2 infantry to 1 Silver helm, (ie10 Archers = 5 Silver helms) or some similar ratio so that you cannot do all cavalry.

I want Ithilmar armour back, although I guess this is just Dragon Armour so maybe not such a big deal.

Still can't make our core as desirable as our special choices though, maybe do something to our Bows to make them better and therefore more desirable (Maybe the boosted shooting spell- reroll to hit, wound and successful armour saves that would make S3 shooting smart a little). I think that the points for spearmen are right, Seaguard should be dropped to 11 points per model with shields (2 pts for Bows) and Archers to 9 (w/o armour) all units should be able to take magical banners up to 25 points.

Anyone have any other thoughts, I like this game.

[scorpio7777]

Honestly, I like our 7th ed book in a few areas, but in others there are way too many things that they need to change for 8th edition.

The problem with our current book is lack of options.. literally everywhere.

High elves are such an "elite" army, but we have less options on what we can do to upgrade our units than most other books out there. I like the idea of building your force the way you want to like Allonairre's ideas above. This is a really good idea, and 6th edition had it close to right, but I think every unit, not just lords and heroes should be customizable like this. I'll explain below.

Lords and Heroes: Currently, there just aren't nearly enough options (just like the rest of the book). Our lords can be much better simply by giving the option to confer benefits to the unit they are with by adding an upgrade, for a pts cost of course ;-)

Not only would this add to the fluff of our army, it would give us that "tactical flexibility" that would show the "elite" status of the High Elves.

Lastly, our Lords need a slight point reduction, especially our non-armored mages.

Core: Herein lies the real issue with our current book. The high point costs could be justified by adding a few rules changes to make our core worth taking, or just keep them the same and reduce their cost, and then allow us to apply upgrades as we wish.

Many armies can outnumber us 2:1 and that's a huge issue for T3 elves. The more bodies they bring, the harder it is for us to win.

We also need many more options here. Instead of spears, why can't we take halberds.. or flails, the option for heavy armor. Or anything but SPEARS ONLY. Changing what we can give our core troops could be the answer we need here. Having STR 4 core because of a change in weapon isn't that drastic of a change for them to make, but it would speak leaps and bounds in our gameplay and give us many more ways to use our citizen soldiers.

My example of would be something like this, trying to stick to the weapons High Elves have used in the past. This sort of makes our core minor versions of our elites.

Choose a Territory: (Spears, Sheilds, Bows, Longbows and Light Armor are available to any core High Elf and you are not required to take one of the upgrades below, they are purely optional.)

?? Pts - Hoeth (Unlocks Great Weapons and Heavy Armor. Units have Magic Attacks.)
?? Pts - Caledor (Unlocks Dragon Armor and Halberds. Units have Flaming Attacks.)
?? Pts - Chrace (Unlocks Great Weapons and Lion Hide Armor. Units are stubborn.)
?? Pts - Shadow Lands (Unlocks Extra Hand Weapon and Greatbow. Units are -1 to hit at range or gain +1 Attack in close combat or shooting. Something like that.)
?? Pts - Ellyrion (Basically, makes a core unit a silver helm. Units gain a Banner of Ellyrion type effect.)
?? Pts - Sapherey (Unlocks Heavy Armor and Halberds. Units have a 5++ Ward Save. A mini version of Phoenix Guard, or maybe magic resistance.. or possibly having the unit champ become a level 1 mage??)
?? Pts - Lothern (Ideas? Need something to show how diverse they are. Maybe they can take an Eagle's Claw Bolth Thrower as a core choice for each Lothern core unit you take??)


Basic High Elf: 6pts (Entire Unit must take the chosen upgrade from the following list and this choice applies to the entire unit.)

At 6 points, we're still a few points above other comparable army core. This would at least allow us to buy some relatively cheap units around 7 points with a hand weapon and a shield and would be the general equivalent of Chaos Warrior Marauders.. just with always strikes first.

- Hand Weapon and Light Armor(Free. Taking any other weapon except and Extra Hand Weapon replaces a hand weapon. Any other armor replaces Light Armor.)
- Extra Hand Weapon Upgrade (+1 Point)
- Spear (1 Point)
- Halberd (1 Point)
- Heavy Armor Upgrade (1 Point)
- Lion Hide Armor Upgrade (+2 Points - Not quite sure what this would do.)
- Dragon Armor Upgrade (+2 or 3 Points - +2 ward vs flaming attacks)
- Shield (1 Point)
- Great Weapon (2 Points)
- Bow (1 point)
- Longbow Upgrade(+2 points)
- Greatbow Upgrade(+4 points)

With these slight upgrades, our forces can be much closer to that "elite" status and gives us many flexible options. For example, you get a High Elf Spearmen with Spear, Shield and Heavy Armor and they would be almost worth their 9 points.

Or, you could go all Lothern Seaguard, but maybe you want them to have Halberds and Longbows instead for 10 points.

The fact that elves are limited to spears in our current book is kind of ridiculous.

Special: With my proposed change above, the general concept of our Specials can stay the same, but for example Swordmasters would have the Hoeth upgrade as above, but come with Greatswords and Heavy Armor automatically and much better stats than a citizen elf.

The primary difference is, they would have a chance to deflect any blow that comes their way, melee or ranged.

Say they get hit 10 times. On a 5 or a 6 they deflect or dodge the blow before it even has a chance to wound them. They are now worth their points cost and can survive long enough to make it into combat. Of course, magic still effects them normally.

Rare: We just need some more options. 2 rare units just isn't enough. We need some hitting power here or some thing that is very survivable. This is where dragons should be.

I know these ideas may be a little extreme, but I'd like to see SOMETHING along these lines.

[Captain Corrigan]

I'm not sure I'd want something quite as dramatic as scorpio7777 suggests, but I'd certainly make changes to core. I think what I would do is put more emphasis on the way in which the citizen army works, I mean at the moment we get archers, then as they become more experienced they join the ranks of the spearmen, but how about more units in a sort of ladder? A bit like the old early roman manipular legions, where you had the velites (or rorarii and accensii if its earlier still) as the least experienced and the hastati above them, the principes above them and the triarii above them. Since the cost of equipment wouldnt be such a problem in Ulthuan because there isnt really poverty to speak of iirc, it might be interesting to put some kind of skirmishers at the bottom, then archers, then a fairly light infantry unit, then spearmen and then a heavier version of spearmen, with the units getting better equipment and becoming more skilled and expensice as you move up, and with the lothern sea guard operating outside the citizen soldiery. Then silver helms could be made core, but with a restriction on them, and we could work from there.

I dont agree on giving the lothern sea guard the option for halberds, they'd be awful in a naval fight because they're so clumsy.

-Corrigan

[scorpio7777]

I'm not saying it's the right way at all, and again the changes are extreme, but I guess we have so little options I just opened the floodgates there =)

And, when it comes down to it the way I have things set up is kind of a "build it yourself" kind of army, where the more upgrades you give them, they do become more and more and more elite.

I'm sure 300+ year old elves are pretty well versed with many different types of weapons. Just because they focus on one at a time, doesn't mean they aren't diverse fighters. After the first 150 years, I'm sure they'd have moved on to other weapons. As a martial artist of 23 years, I've learned 5 different weapons to the point where I have to move on to another. Elves have 1000+ years to learn until they become so elite at the final weapon of choice that they decide to master it beyond the normal levels of human understanding.

It's a very similar theory in Japanese weapon arts. If you can understand how to wield a sword, you understand how to wield a staff as the stances and techniques are very similar. The only true difference is the application of the weapon (IE you cut with a sword and strike with a staff) and the different grips and hand positions.

I dont agree on giving the lothern sea guard the option for halberds, they'd be awful in a naval fight because they're so clumsy.

Also, I wasn't necessarily saying to give the Seaguard halberds, just that it was possible, however this is a good point. Fluff-wise and realistically, it makes no sense to use Halberds in this situation.

[Captain Corrigan]

Yes, I get that I just think that the idea behind the citizen soldiery is a cool one and so you might ruin the fluff of a standardised force free from the specialisms of their homeland. Bearing in mind that the citizen soldiers are not professionals and so do not focus exclusively on learning their weapon, they also make a living etc.

-Corrigan

[scorpio7777]

Yes, I get that I just think that the idea behind the citizen soldiery is a cool one and so you might ruin the fluff of a standardised force free from the specialisms of their homeland. Bearing in mind that the citizen soldiers are not professionals and so do not focus exclusively on learning their weapon, they also make a living etc.

-Corrigan

I do agree with this for the most part for fluff reasons. Heck, its what drew me to play High Elves in the first place. Everyone must learn to fight because there are so few of us left.. we're fighting for survival.

I guess I'm just to the point where I want some more options for our core troops. Maybe we need another unit type in core? Or if not, and we don't get upgrades to ruin the fluff, we need a points reduction if they are to stay the same.

Fluff aside and speaking in pure game mechanics, take 50 Greatsword Khorne Marauders with full command (300 pts) against an equal amount of 30 High Elf Spearmen with full command (295 pts) for example.. for the same cost, our elves lose this battle in a straight up fight. Obviously, being outnumbered is what's killing us here and this is a throw-away unit for WoC. For us, a loss of 30 spearmen hurts as every elf is needed to win the day.

I also understand HE aren't meant to be played as a point and click army like WoC, but our spearmen should be able to stand up to this unit.

[lordhenry]

I think the fact that who you kill doesnt stop the number of attacks back makes ASF abit redundant, maybe instead of that rule, either we become cheaper or get a ward save from the Speed of Asuryan