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Mornin' guys. I've got a game against ogre kingdoms coming up tomorrow, and I'm having my third battle as elves. I'm fielding a fairly magic intense list, with 1 lvl 4, and 1 lvl 2 mage. The rest is a decent mix.
Anyway I'm not quite sure as to which lores to pick to counter ogres. He's got a pretty hard hitting list comprised mostly of core ogre units. I know that high magic is usually a good idea, and I do have both magic rings for some added flare, but I can't decide what to take for my other lore. My AM has the +1 power dice, seer honour, and a dispell scroll. My other mage has the +1 spell, and a dispell scroll.
So on my AM I can pick 4 spells, which will probably open options up a bit. My reg mage will be randomly generating 3 spells. What would you guys recommend?
Ogres are tough to beat for High Elves. The only combat unit that will do decent against them is a large unit of swordmasters and you will have to take them in a unit of 18 (6 wide) or a unit that goes 7 wide then you might be able to get away with 2 ranks. The big advantage you will have is that the ogres have almost no shooting (just lead belchers and they are though and the scraplauncher which I wouldn't worry about to much). So your key is to dominate the shooting and magic phase.
You have enough magic but playing against ogres requires tactics. The one thing to worry about that people tend to underestimate is there speed. Which sucks because it will give you less turns to do damage with shooting/magic.
So you need 2 eagles for march blocking. Very important. Then to buy yourself more time you need to deploy smart. When you deploy on a table 48" wide you can deploy 12 inch in. When both you and your opponent do this then there will only be 24 inches between the two of you so he can charge you by turn 2. And you don't want to be in combat with HE vs Ogres. So you deploy only 5 inch in. This means you have 31 inch between you and your enemy. So the first turn your opponent marches and moves 12 in toward you. Then you stay put and unload magic and shooting on them. You move your eagle so they march block everything (really not hard to do). Since there is still 19 inch between you and your opponent he still can't charge you and being march blocked he can only move 6 inch (if he charges a eagle flee with it and he fails his charge and still only goes 6 inch). So on the 3rd turn there is still 13 inch between you and your opponent so he still can't charge and again only moves 6 inch up brinning him to 7 inch away. So in your next turn you can charge him but you have bought yourself 2 extra rounds of shooting/magic. This is very big.
As for magic there are several ways to go about it.
First of all give your AM the extra spell and your lvl 2 the seer option. That way you are sure they will both have usefull spells. The lvl 4 with a extra spell will have 5 of 6 spells from the lore you choose. Then Seer is a waste.
Ogres have high toughness so you want your RBT's to shoot shingle bolts. the str 6 will almost always wound and has a chance to do up to 3 wounds. If you take heavens and the rerolls you will probably do more damage with this then with the 6 shot option.
Then you can take lore of fire since they have alot of damage spells. (you will need to do alot of damage) But the main purpose of the lore of fire it conflagation of doom to get rid of all butchers in the first 2 turns making your magic phase more powerfull with less dispels.
My favorate is the lore of life (if there is a nice amount of terrain). Master of wood is one of the few spells that does str 5 hits. That is so big against Ogres. With their high toughness strength 4 often just doesn't cut it and howler wind can slow your enemy down enough for an extra round of shooting/combat.
So take any of those for one of your mages. Decide what you like best. However for one of your mages you have to take the lore of light. Reducing the WS of a unit of ogres to 1 is huge. on of the only ways you can win combat with them. Elves with hardly any armor and T3 don't do well against the multitude of str5 attacks the ogres make so you have to make em miss alot.
Finally concentrate your fire and try to work from the flanks in. have your cav on the flanks so once you get into combat you can immediately flank charge. You'll need it. You need to concentrate your fire since you are not going to kill a entire ogre army with shooting/magic and with their speed you will see combat. What you need to do is cause casualties and not wounds. Concentrate your fire in the magic and shooting phase to cause panic checks. So pick a target and keep working it till you have forced a panic check at the end of the phase then move onto the next target. Not before or after. One ogre unit that panics and runs once can be out of the game for 2 to 3 turns and with the tactics above they might never be able to get back into combat.
Sorry it's so long and I hope it helps. The only big risk with this is that if you flee when deployed only 5 inch in you are of the board.
Units to fear:
Leadbelchers - take care of them first. they will rip you apart very quickly. After they get a shot off then leave them be since it takes them a long time to reload and by that time you will have other things to worry about.
Tyrants - Stay away from them. You will not kill him in combat. Conflagration of doom is your best bet with them. Or just try to avoid them. In combat they will easily kill a dragon. Nuff said.
Rhinoxes - They are your bane - hard to kill and all I can say is leave them alone and concentrate on the rest of the army. You'll need to waste an averge of 4 bolt thrower turns to bring one down. Not worth it. The best thing to do is to "feed" the rhinoxes some reavers or eagles. Make sure they have to pursue away from your army. They will probably kill reavers and eagles out right but you don't want them to use overrun to get to your line quicker.
Last edited by Sylvester; February 15th, 2006 at 19:46.
Yeah I'm definately not sure how to deal with the tyrant. My opponent has a penchant for risking stupidity, to give his tyrant T6. That probably won't go down too easily with magic.
I got 2 eagles, 2 RBTs, but I lack any of the elite infantry choices. They just seem too expensive and fragile.
Yeah my plan is to set up the typical elf base, of archers, mage, and RBTs on a hill, and then use everything else to out-flank, and focus on 1 enemy unit at a time. If he has a scrap-launcha, I'll send an eagle to go keep it busy.
So as far as the magic goes, yeah fire looks good for direct damage, and light is useful for preparing an enemy unit for assault. So those sound like the best choices?
The lore of shadow isnt a bad lore versus orgres. It reduces their leadership and will probably make sure that they run from taking a few shotting casualties. Its is then likely tha tthey wont rally adn you can destroy them with your eagles. Remember to make sure that you eithwer destroy orgre units that are closest or make them run because just a couple of orgres in an eleven unit can cause mayhem.
Not that it is a sure thing by any means, but AOG with swordmaster honor on a prince should make for a decent addition to the swordmasters, and if you get real lucky, his killing blow may even solve that tyrant problem, provided you get the charge in the first round of combat. If you let Ogres get the charge on you then good luck recovering the momentum for the rest of the game. Swordmasters may make for a useful unit with their woodsman rule, and the rest of your combat units might be better off a little larger than normal to prevent autobreaking from outnumbered by fear causing troops.
Games Workshop is the Wal-Mart of hobby products, except for the low prices. The lack of respect and profit mongering is there in spades.
killing blow cant harm orgres, it only affercts man size models.
Only white lions have the woodsmen rule.
about ogres. would foe bane work normally against em (i believe they are 3 wounds and up for each ogre right?) if so, that'd be a nice add on for any commander/prince u may field
"One thing that intrigues people to fantasy is how different it is from reality. Make sure you remember that difference, and you'll have a wonderful time."
Yeah so I ended up choosing fire and light, but I'd made some changes to my list, and ended up rolling randomly for my light spells. I got illumination (ugh), guardian light (yay), and blinding light (yay). My fire spells turned up nicely.
Anyway the game went very well, and the magic suited the game nicely. My archmage with fire and my ranged units incinerated an entire unit of 8 ironguts before they got a chance to get anywhere. Light spells were proving totally inneffective until I got lucky and pulled off guardian light so I wouldn't have to worry about that silly tyrant and his terror.
Things looked ugly when I misjudged a charge distance. (we were literally 11.9999 inches apart), and he was able to charge my front lines. Blinding light took him down to WS1, and my stubbord spear elves held.
I realized that I couldn't really touch his T6 tyrant with direct damage, so I ended up pulling off a front and double flank charge on his unit with the princes, a unit of helms/battle banner, and 2 chariots. The princes all died horribly (dispite him being at WS1), but with other factors I'd won the combat by 10, and ran them down, hehe. A very good game.
Foe Bane should work, as far as I know.
Some Wood Elf players seem to like fast cavalry against Ogres. They just run circles around them and harass with continuous bowfire (and can then combine charges with something nasty like Wild Riders or, in your case, Dragon Princes)
Another thing they noted is to fight fire with fire and use Treekin and Treemen. So, you might go and try a Dragon and Ogre mercenaries. (Or set up a Sea Patrol combat gunline supported by a Dragon, a Merwyrm and two RBTs. Should be nasty enough. And Curse of Arrow Attraction with all that shooting...)
DoW duellists with pistols might not be a bad idea, either. St4 combat skirmishers with St4 shooting could be pretty nasty.
Use Light, Beasts, Metal instead of Heavens
NecroLords: Use at least one Death Mage
Brets: Use Peasants&Damsels
Skaven: Don't use Skryre SAD
What I find helpful is once again as said in previous posts, the rarely ever taken Foe Bane. I also try to keep him at a distance by using my mages with Mistress of the Marsh, then blast away at him with magic with a few other mages strategically placed.
Here's Valvogan's Golden rule of Fighting Ogres
Never, never, never assume that you can win a combat against Ogres; they always have a nasty way of killing off your guys as fast as you can flank charge. Never assume that you will win combat toe to toe against an ogre unit.
Where does this leave us?
Blow him away with magic and all our favorite war machine, The Bolt Thrower! (However use the Bolt thrower wisely, as he'll be on top of you before you know it.)
Also lore of Death, lore of Fire, lore of Shadows, lore of Light, and Lore of Life (for Mistress of the Marsh) all work great against ogres.
Remember that even Elves can run away from fear causing units, so always try to have a flank-charging unit for every squad charged. It is rare that High Elves ever outnumber an enemy, but when we do, USE THIS TO YOUR ADVANTAGE.
And Finally: Good luck in your Ogre slaying and remember that if you lose, you can always come back for another go! Just be a good sport.