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my high elf army's looking alittle date'ed (lets just say most of my army is either in the classic models section of the online store, or not even on sale anymore,
anyway, i'm planning to rebuild te army ofer my summer break from uni, and was trying to think of somthing alittle diffrent, personaly i've never really faired to well with calvery, either because i mainly fight dwarfs, or lizard men sarus army, both difficult to break and my silver helms just seem to bounce of, or because being mind full of past defeats i've not wanted to take many silver helms into battle due to them not being sucessful in the past, so not taking enough to be effective,
so im planning to remake the army, getting away from the spearmen without number and maxed out on mages and bolt throwers,
the new army is going to be more of a hunting party idea, lots of shadow warriors (they have always worked well for me) with silver helms as core (just cos everyones always raving about them and i should figgure them out), and white lions as special (using that honnor (i dont have the HE book to hand right now)) and eagles as rare. and if i have any special slots left a charriot or 2 so the whole army moves up very fast (WL through the obligatory wood on any battle field) all under the cover of skrimishing wall of shadow warriors.
if your still reading, there is a point to this i promises, 1) whats the best way to field silver helms, and 2) can anyone explain to me why noone ever uses shadow warriors 3)are there any really obvious problems with the plan that you wise people can see
Silver helms are best used in 2 small units (5 or 6) 3 units max. I know many people field all cav armies with them and I'm my oppinion they should just play brettonian, who are actually good at all cav. Your silver helms will not be heavy breaking units. They need too many for static combat res and if you don't break on the charge they suck. So the best way to use them is units of 5 or 6 and use them for flanking. However since unit of 5 are so cheap they are also good at warmachine hunting and mage hunting of even redirection. The reason they are so good at flanking is because they are fast and unlike fast cav they are not easy kills.
Shadow warriors. The reason people don't use them is because in a High elven army they are reduced to only 1 role and that is shooting. Which they are to expensive for since they are no better then regular archers. Most armies use their scouts for march blocking but with HE eagles are much better at that.
MSU does not work with spearmen. You need big blocks. but team them up with chariots. I use 4 chariots which is pushing it but I also field big blocks of spearmen. (2 units of 24).
White lions suck. Sure their stats look nice but think about it. They are toughness 3 with a 6+ AS and strike last unless they charge. Sure they have hitting power but unless they are charging your front rank will be dead before they get to strike. Very expensive for models that die easier then spearmen. You are better off with swordmasters. They have a better AS and they strike in initiative. Trust me, swordmasters are one of the best infantry units in the game.
For rares always take at least 2 eagles. They are gods gift to High Elves. I sometimes take 4 and no boltthrowers getting the reaction from opponents that I'm doing them a favor. They change their minds quickly though.
As for magic: 4 levels is enough. either 2 lvl 2's or one lvl 4. Add a bound spell (ring of corin is awesome for drawing out dispel dice) and a jewel of the dusk and you have a more then potent magic phase.
Hope this helps.
1. sylvester hit the nail on the head about the silverhelms...5 to 6 are the best unit sizes, but they are really hideous on their own...i prefer backing them up with a commander or making then a very supportive unit. i wont haven em hunting on their own.
2. woahhhhhhh... sylvester dude, you're completely wrong (imo) about the shadow warriors. first off eagles should be doing more important things then marchblocking....shadow warriors are still the best mage hunters and marchblockers. the reason no one takes them is because dragon princes, chariots and reavers are 10 times better. and smasters suck..see below.
3. i dont like swordmasters...they just arent worth it. no one really cares that they strike in initiative order. no one cares about ws6 either. the stuff people care about is the 200 (for a 'supportive' unit) to 350 (for a mbu with magic banner) point missile magnet they are and the fact they have t3 and 5+. they will get shot. they will get magicked. they will get charged by faster things. their front rank will be killed and they will be lucky to get one or two attacks back. if you're lucky (or very good at baiting and fleeing/redirecting) they will get the charge and cause decent damage on the charge, but considerably less then 2 chariots who have almost double the charge range of swordmasters. they still lose in a battle of attrition regardless of their special rule. if they are better then the opposing unit in a battle of attrition they are probably much cheaper.
4. white lions, on the other hand, are much better. but the reason no one takes them that often is because they are *rare* and they always lose out to the essential rbt and eagles. however, in a hunting party like yours it might fit the fluff to either drop the rbt (i wouldnt recommend that) or get a lion guard hero (i would recomend that). now you could have 2 units of shadow warriors, a unit of white lions and a pair of chariots or reavers or something. swordmasters and white lions cant win in a battle of attrition...no high elf unit can. they must break on the charge...so id pick the unit that hits harder on the charge --> white lions. also, about the armor save (not that one point of armour makes a difference), the only armor save that really matters is the one against shooting and magic...in which case white lions have the better save. if you get the charge your opponent wont have many attacks left. if you get charged neither smasters nor white lions will have any models to attack back with. note that striking last doesnt make much of a differnece because it is essential you break on the charge.
finally, they can advance through terrain without penalty, making them ideal for advancing and keeping them out of the way of missiles and magic (which, as i might have mentioned, is the biggest danger to smasters and wls).
as a *bonus* they can become stubborn if your commander on foot happens to become general and you deploy him with the wl. note it is a 'bonus'. dont base any or your battle plans around making wl stubborn because I@C often disappoints. having a commander on foot with lion guard inside white lions isnt so bad as placing him in other units, because since wl are hiding in the woods they will have the opportunity to make the charge thus reducing the chance an enemy will charge your wl, direct attacks on the commander and kill him off. drop the rbt and lion guard and give your commander armor of the gods, amulet and a great weapon for some st 7 fun.
top of the two commanders with a lvl4 for ld9 general guarantee
and yes, eagles>all. but ffs dont waste them on marchblocking or warmachine hunting. use them to redirect stuff so you your infantry units can win one on one battles by hitting units in the flank and stuff like that. redirecting is also good for frenzied troops, combat denial, yadda yadda, and all that stuff. i took the below images right out of my tactica (top of the high elf page)...this is what i mean:
(note that the high elf unit doesnt have to be cav, it can be infantry as well, but it would be a little harder to setup ....but more rewarding because flanks + rank + outnumber + standard gives you a better chance to break then 6 st5 attacks + flank)
Last edited by Lord Anathir; May 27th, 2006 at 03:56.
2006 Record (2k pts): High Elves: 20/5/2 (wld)
thanks guys, i'm fully aware of how good sword masters are, but im going for a grittier, hardened by war looks for the army, and the sparkly swords of hoath dont really fit, esp since im not really going for much magic, bescided i notice that the main strength of the swordmasters is on the charge, and the main weekness is being shot up on there way to the battle, so white lions are less susceptable to being shot up, and shouldfair just as well on the charge.
well i wrote a tester army list, i managed to shoehorn 4 eagles, 2 charriots, 2 uits of 6 SW, and 3 small (5/6 model) units of SH, but im alittle worried that the only rank and file i have is a 20 person unit of white lions. it the lack of ranked up combat resolution going to be a problem, the idea is that i never attack anything with one unit, i would always be flanking with somthing esp since i gave the treat dificult terain as normal banner to one of the SH. also what types of heros would you sugest, i was thinking, that 30th anarversary character, with shadow armour and foe bane, (it is a hunting party after all do hes very fitting with the theme, or the hunter captain of the white lions, both cool special characters, who arnt over powering or expensave, and for none special characters, what are some good setups for comanders for use inside silverhelm units, is it a good idea to give them lances, or should i be thinking magic weapons? and would a BSB weith the +D6 combat resolution banner be a good idea sothat im more likley to break units that held there own against the charge?
A BSB with the battle banner works really well. There is just one problem with it. It's a 80 point banner and it will be carried by a 2 wound T3 character that can only have a 5+ AS (on foot). It's a risk.
Most of what I would say to help has already been said by Lord Anathir and Sylvester,
None the less I will try and add in a few of my veiws on this matter: As previously stated Silver Helms in units of 5 or 6 usually cannot tackle rank and file infantry units alone. The trick is to slam a chariot (or another unit of helms) into the front of a unit while the Helms hit the flank. This will negate the foes rank bonus and 2 sets of str 5 attacks on the foe's frontage and flank means the combat is yours. I have used this tactic to decent success on several different armies. My tip is to not have a standard bearer in your Silver Helm units nor a musician. But always take a Champion and bung in a Commander where you can. This tactic will break most units without the need for super magical items or any nasty tricks. I have massive belief and confidence of the power of speed in warhammer, little ever manages to charge my units 1st. Please bare in mind that this advice is purely directed around the basic method of successful Silver Helm useage (in small units) You'll need complimentary supportive units such as Bolt Throwers, Mages, Shadow Warriors or Eagles to disrupt their lines to really have a good flank revealed. Of course, aggresive armies oftern end up revealing several flanks unless their hoard armies who span the entire field. But you'll seen see there is always a way or chance to break them up with your noble horsemen.
If anyone accuses you of playing your army incorrectly or tells you to play Bretonnia instead, laugh at them. Bretonnia play completely differently, they oftern use far larger units with rank bonus and additional attacks. They storm a units front and win the old fashioned way. Elven cavalry involves far more finesse and utilisation of speed. Also, refer Tyrion's fluff to them, he appears to oftern command entire armies of cavalry. Or mention the fact that the province of Elryion nearly always fields pure cavalry, and not just fast cav Reavers! By no means am I saying you should use pure cavalry, I personally use a variety of different army styles. I just don't let other people influence or choose for me
As for spearmen unit sizes, they can operate just fine in smaller units than 20. I oftern use them to great effect in 4x4 units, they perform their chosen tasks to an adequate standard. I am not saying large units of spearmen are bad, but I am saying smaller units can and do still have their uses. It all depends on the players style and requirements for the given unit. I play usually with small units of every unit, Elves are expensive in pts and I do not like all my eggs in one basket. Units which end up costing 300+pts just don't suit me personally. Not when they perform only a touch better than a unit which is just over half the price. For me, High Elves are an army of economy, the general needs to pack in as much punch as he can vs the pt cost ratio. I am not discrediting the other options btw, just showing that a problem can be approached in more than one way.
I hope my words help at least a little,