Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
Hey guys, I have in the past few months come to this conclusion (note: this is my personal opinion, please don't kill me) High Elf archers are really no longer worth the points that they are listed as. I know what some of you will say "stop wining there is nothing you can do about it blah blah blah" but I really don't want to hear any of this, so if you don't have anything constructive to say then don't say it!
THis post is simply an opinion post on what you think GW is going to do to the archers in the next edition of the army book. so my question to you is...
Do you think that the High Elves will be changed a great deal? Do you think they will get rid of intrigue at court and replace it with a more useful rule that befits our fluff? Will the archers be taken down to a more reasonable points cost or keep the same points cost and add some other special rule?
Now I do have reasons behind this. My, first reason is that (if you guys remember the glorious 5th edition, the time when elven archers were truly a force to be reckoned with), they are 12 points a model! Ahhh! 12 points for a less effective Spearman with no special rule and a longbow, no armor and no shield. Now to me that is a pretty big blow, they are more expensive than a more effective unit and have less of a role to play on the field. The best part about HIgh Elves in the old edition was te fact that our archers could shoot in two ranks on a smooth surface, this coupled with their lower points cost made them arguably ads good as Wood Elves and no HIgh Elf force would be seen without a good number of them. HOwever with this edition of the HIgh Elf force these troops as well as some of the other troop types see less and less action as time goes on.
Now if these archers had something going for them say an ability to shoot in two ranks then it would be worth it. THis is even supported by simple common sense. If you are an archer who has served as an archer for say close to forty years wouldn't you think that you would be able to fire in a second rank or fire from a kneeling position? YES, YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO!!!! Proffessional marksman can do it through the legs/ blindfolded/ behind the back/ upside down/ drunk even, and they've had maybe half as many years worth of training and action. So you would think that an archer in an elvish army would be able to fire from a kneeling position with accuracy considering that they have probably had at least 40 years of experience before they move to the position of Spearmen.
I have a whole bag full of other facts about these guys and I can whip them out later if necessary, so please feel free to state your opinion of the questions above and add anything about the current HIgh elf army list that you think needs readjusting.
I agree with your point of view, but it is not limited to HE alone.
"Shooty" infantry in warhammer is overpriced in general. They generally charge 4 points or more for a shooting weapon, which is IMHO overpriced.
In particular, the HE archer is probably the worst buy in the game (from a shooting perspective). He is 12 points (IIRC), and yet the ONLY advantage he gets is a BS of 4. Compared to other shooters (Empire Handgunners, Bretonnian Archers, etc...) he is nowhere worth the points.
The primary reason for this is due to the fact that I believe the "naked" high elf is vastly overpointed. I believe a naked high elf is 7 or 8 points. To compare, a naked human is 3. Is the high elf more than TWICE as powerful as the human? No way. Yes, he has a lot of stat boosts. He has a better move, a better BS and WS, a better initiative, and a better leadership. All of these things are useful in a given situation, but to be honest, other than Ld, the stats the DON'T get the boost in are better. Would you rather have a WS of 4 or a S of 4? S of course. How about toughness? Even elven characters are weak in the T department.
I'm not saying that High Elves should have a higher strength or toughness, but I AM saying that they are paying WAY too much for their basic statline.
So THAT is why the HE archers are "worthless." They are (IMHO) overpaying for their stats (that most of the time they won't be using), AND they're overpaying for their bow. That makes them one of the most overpriced things in the game.
Like you, I am very interested in seeing how their new book will turn out. What I feel the HE's need is a better army rule. I think this would go a LONG way towards making the army more competitive.
For example, an generic army rule where ALL Elven weapons give a +1 to hit would make the high elves worth their points they are paying now. In addition, any Elf wearing any type of armor would automatically get an additional +1 to their armor save. This would signify the advanced design of elven weapons and armor. So a generic High Elf Spearman would go from an armor save of 5 to 4, and he would be able to hit his opponent 16% more often. In addition, it would allow the High Elf archer hit on a 2+ instead of a 3+, making their bowmen worth the substantial point cost.
THAT would make the high elves competitive.
I seriously hope so...Originally Posted by High-wolf LeaderI think that you couldn't.... since longbows are just to big and would probablly only delay and complicate the procedure of shooting, giving your enemy more time and space.High-wolf LeaderIf you are an archer who has served as an archer for say close to forty years wouldn't you think that you would be able to fire in a second rank or fire from a kneeling position?So *we* would have 1+ silver helms... not bad but I really wouldn't want to see this. Our basic infantry (spearelves) *only* needs to have heavy armour instead of a light armour.Originally Posted by Rameusb5Our infantry is already ''blessed'' with higher-than-average WS, hence I really don't think that we need this. We need a few pointsâ€™ reductions and a few balanced rules.Originally Posted by Rameusb5Combining with ''curse of the arrow attraction'' effect this would really be a bit over the top...Originally Posted by Rameusb5
I think that GW will not produce a bad army list when it's our turn (new WE, Eldar)... however I want more decent fluff and fiction (not some goody-good propaganda).
This above all; to thine own self be true.
To be clear, I don't play high elves, and never have.
So my desire to see them improved (with the rules I proposed) has nothing to do with a personal agenda. I just desire ALL of the army books to be balanced. And currently, the HE book is the weakest of every army, IMHO. Only in magic are they OK, and even there they are exceeded by others (Lizardmen, Skaven, Chaos, and certain special characters).
Like I said in my long post, the TRUE problem with the high elves is that they (like the dark elves) are dramatically overpointed. Instead of costing a base 8 points, they should cost (IMHO) about 5.
The problem is, "fluffwise" the High elves are a dying race and thus should NOT be that cheap. You shouldn't be able to field a "horde" of High Elves. To counterbalance this, I proposed giving them advantages to make them WORTH that 8 points a man.
As far as getting a 1+ armor save, the truth of the matter is that it's almost the same as the 2+ that they already have. The 1+ armor save is not that uncommon (2 other armies have it). It's not that big of a boost. Besides, the idea was to make their INFANRY better, not their cav. Going from a 5+ to a 4+ save for their spearmen is a much bigger improvemen (50%) than going from a 2+ to a 1+ for their cav (20%).
Let's face it, when it came to army special rules, the high elves (and dark elves for that matter) got boned bigtime. I used to think that the DE had the worse army, but at least GW finally came around and realized how stupid their army was and came back and fixed it. That eeked the DE over the HE. They're both the weakest two lists, but now the HE win the award for "most overpriced models."
As the above poster said archers in general are overpriced these days. The big problem IMHO is that once the game gets to the point where it's most CC oriented (the armies clash..flankers move in etc) the archers usefulness drops DRAMATICALLY. If the archers had hand weapon longbow light armor and shield they'd be worth 12 points I think because then they could shoot and then block up and do some effective fighting or sponging.
Even my bretonnian archers aren't that effective. With my two armies - Brets and HE - I find it more effective to just not use archers and use mostly melee and magic anyway. Of course this does vary by your opponent. Archers are nice against horde armies simply to weed out the barrier units and then RBTs are still very effective in 4's against highly armored units. Otherwise, I think you are absolutely correct sir..archers need some help.
Edit: One thing I think would be kinda nice is if archers had a +1 str at close range similar to that of the Glade Guard longbow. That thing can hurt BAD at close range even on units with light/medium armor. It kinda makes sense too..
Wow another thread on how HE can be improved:rolleyes:
HE are not underpowered and i get bored of players whining about it tbh. Sure they don't have the "pick up and play" factor of, say, dwarfs but they are still a force to be reckoned with.
How about every one of your magic items are underpriced? And that unit champions can take magic items as well? How about you can choose your spells? Your spearmen fight in three ranks, giving them a rediculous number of attacks. You have solid core cavalry, you have chariots with excellent movement, you have one of the best war machines in the game, you have access to eagles...
This is a thread about HE archers, so let's keep it that way eh?
HE archers are actually pretty good, in a few limited roles. Specifically, they are good for killing:
1. Missle troops, particularly empire handgunners and x-bows. These weapons will decimate expensive elf units, and the archers are excellent for dispatching them. HE shots are good, long ranged, and MOBILE. DE can shoot twice. Bret peasents can march and shoot. If the HE have a shooting retreat, and the other races have to advance to stay in range, the expected kills are actually the same (for the same amount of points). Both other races have an advantage in more shots, so if they do well they CAN kill more guys, but you expect about the same when everyone is moving and at long range. So be sneaky with those archers.
2. Fast cav: HE want to be marchblocking the foe, and enemy fast cav can marchblock them right back. the archers are good enough to move and shoot, so they are less likely to be rendered useless by fast cav running outside their arc of fire than troops with T4 move-or-fire weapons. They are pretty good at taking out fast cav
3. 0 armor. Archers are wasted against armor, but you can always pray for 6's against toughness. This is not ideal, but I'd much rather be sniping away at a giant than have to charge it. The archers can knock giants, spawn, witch elves, etc., pretty well. I'd rather save my RBT shots for something that has armor to negate...
All this being said, the archers are only good against a few targets, they don't have as many shots as many similar archers, and aren't as powerful as WE archers. So it'd definately be nice if they shot in two ranks or something to give them a slight edge.
Remember though that two ranks means they'd be even easier to kill with templates and the like...
Last edited by kooshlord; October 24th, 2006 at 16:45.
Arena of Death Champion: Nexim of the Guldskullz Tribe. Fear my wrath!
I guess untill we get new AB this kind of thread will probabbly pop-up once in a while...Originally Posted by StonehambeyThis was intentally made and it was ment to balance the fragility of our commanders. You could also mention that our honours count toward that limit which limits your options.Originally Posted by StonehambeyMy main concearn is that what our spearelves can do it pikemens can do it better for practiclly the same price... WS really isn't a factor here since you'll get more attacks even if counting ''fight in three ranks'' that HE infrantry has.Originally Posted by StonehambeyYes, our cavalry and movment charaterisctics are good but we were never ment to be cavalry army (however we were ment to dominate in the movment phase)... not to mention, how quickly it get's boring to play against a pure HE cavalry army.Originally Posted by StonehambeyI don't consider RTB as ''one of the best machines in the game''.Originally Posted by StonehambeyCompleattly agree.Originally Posted by Rameusb5
Last edited by Marcus Piraticus; October 24th, 2006 at 17:56.
This above all; to thine own self be true.
Oops, forgot one.
4. HE archers are fantastic against screening units (T3 unarmored cav or skirmishers). have the archers blow away the warhounds or whatever that protect the big meaty units behind them. Then target the real threats with RBTs.
Arena of Death Champion: Nexim of the Guldskullz Tribe. Fear my wrath!
the thing that I have a problem with is that HE archers like what has been said above are drastically overpointed, have limited uses against most armies, don't have the stopping power of most things (LOW STRENGTH and NO AP whatsoever) which means that they are usless against heavy cavalry (ie chaos knights and knights of the inner circle etc.), it is also that they simply are not strong enough in the numbers that are available to do any real damage.
One of thei things that I am saying here is that their BS of 4 really has no efect on the game play unless the enemy unit is within 15 inches of your unit, and that doesn't havppen until late in the game when most of the game winning things happens. PLus even against the Skaven for example the archers are going to need 4's to hit and then if their lucky they'll be alive long enough to get into short range (mine seem to always die first and really never do anything [because my dice rolling sucks]). THey should be able to move and fire without penalty or something cool or TWO RANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I just had to say that again (it will appear many more times in this post).
What I mean is if you take a big couple of units say around 20 in each if you try to maximize the number of shots with them you have a single line of troops easily defeated and then driven off, this is why we need the Two ranked rule,
I mean as I said earlier though not very elegantly the archers in the HE armies have served with each other for many, many years and have acquired many skills that many of the other lesser races don't have, discipline being a principle one but also the ability to fire in a cohesive and dependable manner having one rank fire then step back and allow the other rank to fire. Basically forming a shower of arrows that is unrelenting until they are either dead or run out of munitions. THis is how I view the archers.
THis coupled with the fact that they have no stopping power and the fact that as stated above they need to be placed in one rank makes it dfficult to utilize this unit, often if you do have wide ranks it leaves no room for you other troops and if you don't they are simply a waste of points and waste of space.
Don't get me worong I love the High Elf archers to death but the fact that they suck makes me look at them like you would to your ex-wife. You know you love her but you want that psychotic B#$%@ to die. (Sorry bout that).
I just think that until the new book comes out and allows some of te most highly trained and elite archers in the entire world whose skill with a bow is unmatched by any lesser race...wait where was I going with this? Um o they suck and will continue to suck until there are some drastic changes in the army book to these nimble warriors.
And thats that.