Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
Well, I played a 3000pt game, HE vs. Tomb Kings the other day, and it was particularly messy; mostly it was a try-out for both our armies, (I've never played much WHFB but like to when I get the chance) - armies panned out like this:
Me: Everqueen & 10 Maiden Guard, Eltharion the Blind & 19 Swordmasters (full command & banner of sorcery), 20 phoenix guard (banner of arcane protection), 2 RBTs, 2 Eagles, 20 Spearmen (full command), 10 Archers, 2 blocks of 10 SS's (one with lion banner).
Him: Nasty TK queen, casket of souls, about 3 lich priests (one a heirophant), an icon bearer, bone giant, 3 chariots, 12 poisonous archers, 2 squads of tomb kings and a bunch of carrion.
It was needless to say very messy - we were playing capture & hold, and whilst he was focusing more on killing my guys, I was holding the objective. I wasn't big on dispelling stuff, but managed to get off alot of master of stone spells from the everqueen with IF - my guys were all essentially fearless and of course better than cruddy undead (when they got into combat), so really held him up. My cavalry got completely wasted charging in - they seemed a bit redundant.
I was considering other options against the TKs - an army focused around Imrik & Dragon & Book of Hoeth Archmage seems pretty promising. Any ideas on what to do against this strong a magical army?
If you're playing that big of a pt battle and your opponent let's you take characters - then take more swordmasters. There are several banners that work well against magic. The problem with silver helms and unbreakable units is they don't do well after the charge. You would be better off with spearmen, because they get better combat resolution (additional wounds on his skellies if you win) and they get up to 18 attacks if you line them up 6 wide and at least 3 deep. Use the swordmasters for the tough units like bone giant. Take some scolls, and maybe a arch wizard and some bound items. There is a banner that takes str 4 hits on undead and demons in contact with you, (can't remember the name) that might also be useful. Silver helms should probably be used in small 5 man groups with musician to bait and flank and take away his ranks. If you could get some shadow warriors to deploy close to the casket -that would help. Or maybe some eagles could swoop and charge. You want to kill his casket to stop the line of sight spell and/or kill his queen (watch out for the curse!) so the rest of the army crumbles (easier said than done)
good luck, sounds like a good game.
I don't like magic heavy HE armies but since he is loading it up on the magic I don't see and issue. The everqueen is pretty good but consider Teclis instead. The scroll of hoeth can distroy the caskets spell and he can have multiple flames of the phoenix going. Which is so nasty with him since he gets to reroll spell effects.
Then take 2 lvl 2's and both bound spells. Now your magic should be up to par. Add the banner of sorcery and the jewel of the dusk and you should be dominant. Then add 2 eagles to hunt for the casket and redirect after the killed the casket. Add 2 RTB's for some nice damage and finaly 4 chariots. charge all 4 chariots at the same blocks. Since they will crumble from combat res in one turn with 3 or 4 chariots.
A big gamble in this tactic is intregue at court. You need Teclis as your general. LD 10 is needed so you don't fail all your fear checks. Stay away from the unit the queen is in and only hit it when you can slam into the flank with 3 or 4 chariots and in the front with a unit of spears (if she challanges refuse with your champion).
The ring of corin can destroy the staff and she will only have the undispelable spell left with is only really good cast on her own unit so try and stay out of combat with her. Get flames of the phoenix on her unit (maybe even 2 or 3 times and she can be forced to leave the unit. (Especially if Teclis casted the FotP).
I know it's all dependent on decent rolling but it will give you a fighting chance.
Another option is to hunt for the queen. She is nasty but not unbeatable.
I mean no armor save and only 3 wounds.
Put a prince on a steed and give him foe bane, shield, dragon armor , helm of fortune and lion guard.
Put him in a unit of dragon princes with the lion standard.
Now you have a unit that is immune to fear and terror and stubborn on a 10.
You will want to challange with the prince and the queen will need 4's to hit and with str4 you save any wounds on a 2+ rerollable. You hit on 3's and wound on 2's. I would give her no more then 2 rounds before she dies. Now you might not win combat after the charge anymore but it is very unlikely that you will run.
So against the prince. queen strikes 1st.
2.5 hits (average) and 2/3 will wound you should save 35 out of 36. Now you strike and 2.66 will hit. 2 of those should wound. The queen will get 2 more rounds before you get to strike again but she has to get mighty lucky to kill you on a 2X 2+ save. Statisticly you should kill her in the opponents turn after you charge.
Last edited by Sammy the Squib; January 29th, 2007 at 19:32.
Thanks for the advice guys - Teclis hadn't occured to me, given the extra spells that the everqueen gets - especially the guardian light. Perhaps lore of light would be a good choice for Teclis? (does he only get one lore, or high magic + another lore?) I will have to invest in his model at some point. Lucky payday is coming up...
An Archmage with book of hoeth /and/ Teclis? Or would this be overkill? 3000pts allows for that many lord choices, as well as a couple level 2s.
The banner of arcane protection was on my Phoenix guard in the game we played - unfortunately they never got into combat to make it work. Their causing fear makes them a natural choice vs. Undead, even if they are a bit pricey...
Swapping out spears for chariots would work - more models I haven't yet invested in yet I was thinking that 5 dragon princes might be a good trick (give the bladelord a foebane) for possibly knocking out that Bone Giant...
Actually I completely spaced out that you played 3000 points. In that case I would go with both Teclis and the prince in the dragon princes option.
Also consider getting four eagles. You will need to take out that casket. If you do that (which should be easy with 4 eagles) and you use the prince to assasinate the queen you will dominate the magic phase. This should be doable by turn 2 or 3 if you place well.
Lore of light is always good against any undead but keep in mind that the range is only unlimited on the range of a spell not on the affected area. So a magic missile with 18" range is with Teclis unlimited range but a spell that makes everything within 12" of him immune to psycology still stays at 12".
Teclis only know one lore (to be picked by you) but he knows every spell in the lore. Personally I would stick with High magic or fire magic (teclis can be really nasty with conflagration of doom).
I'm somewhat limited in models - I only have 2 eagles (and a third with a mounted hero conversion) - no griffons or dragons yet. I also currently have no white lions (aside from Korhil) and no chariots...
This weekend I'll fork out some dosh for a few chariots, teclis, and possibly Imrik and Dragon...
A prince with 5 dragon princes (again, I only have a rank of 5 of those bad boys) I suppose you could give him the claw of devestation, or other grobbly weapon (or indeed the conflagration of doom weapon to toast those nasties - even if it is only S3).
That's why I was thinking that Imrik, and possibly even a second prince on dragon might be neat. Lots of breath weapon, terror-immune goodness, and either of them could wipe out the casket in a single turn by killing the guard and liche priest (then it crumbles).
Eagles are more cost effective of course...
Also, just a plain bladelord (the dragon prince champ) can be given a foebane. I think he's tough enough to seriously hold up a bone giant, and do it some wounds over a few rounds. The rest of the squad should also hurt it on a charge with their lances.
How does this revised list look?
Teclis with Lore of Fire (High Magic is the oh-so-tempting alternative. infinite range drains, unmaking and multiple flames of phoenix...)
Archmage lvl4 with the book of hoeth and lore of fire.
Mage lvl2 with 2 dispell scrolls, channeler.
Mage lvl2 with sigil of asuryan (the spell destroying dispel scroll).
2 Units of 6 silver helms each with full command.
2 Units of 19 Spearmen, each with full command, 1 with the lion standard (the level 2 mages each join these).
1 unit of 18 swordmasters - banner of sorcery, bladelord with foebane. Teclis and the archmage can join this unit - or should teclis sit at the back on a hill?
2 Chariots. 2 Eagles, 2 RBTs. That bumps up to 2993 points total. Would the ring or corin and ring of fury be worthy alternatives to the scrolls? (gonna have stacks of dispel dice - but the casket negates HE dispel bonus until it's dead).
I have to say thats a lot of magic in one list! Must be well over a thousand points worth of casters. Ouch.
Oh and just a small point, a Bladelord is the Swordmaster champion. The Dragon Prince champion is called a Drakemaster.
Thou shalt remember:
Warhammer Fantasy armies do NOT have Codices. They have Army Books.
LINK - Guitarists of LO Group
Take the prince with dragon princes. The combo I told you is stuborn ld10 that is immune to fear and terror. Their purpose is not to break units but too assasinate the TK queen. A dragon against a rank and file unit is not that good of an idea. On top of that after the first round of combat imrik is only STR4. And you only need 5 dragon princes. I mean wether you have 5 or 25 they are still stubborn 10. And they don't die easily with WS5 and AS2+.
Also Teclis will serve you better then a archmage with the book of hoeth. Your eagles and prince and hunt characters and after turn 2 or 3 you should dominate the magic phase. Teclis is not worth his points because he has unlimited range or because he knows all the spells in the lore he picks. His main power is the shear devistation of a spell casted by Teclis vs by a normal mage. Rerolling of all spell affects is huge. Take conflagration of doom. Roll for hits. If you roll low you can reroll it. Then go into the roll off with your opponents for extra hits. Your opponent gets to roll once. You reroll if you don't like your first roll. You will add much more hits then a normal mage would. Then you roll to wound and reroll all failed ones. Or flames of the phoenix, reroll all failed wounds. And he can have multiple going. Once you dominate the magic phase he will destroy units at a time.
The prince should be a 1+ rerollable save with that setup, btw (ithilmar barding, shield, heavy armour, then the bonus from the helm?).
I like the look of the dragon princes unit - although they could be in trouble if the queen refuses the challenge, and in this case he put her in a full block of grobbly tomb guards - not nice.
As for Teclis - he can't have multiples of the same remains in play spells active, according to the HE book. He can have multiple RiP spells, but as soon as he tries to recast the same spell, the first cast of that spell ends. Also, obviously he can only cast flames of phoenix etc. from within 24 inches of the target (fury of khaine and drain magic are his only unlimited range high magic spells).
For that reason (as well as the wording of his unlimited ranges) lore of fire is better (3 magic missile spells, plus 1 remains in play).