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  1. #1
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    2500 Points DH - Friendly

    Hi. Im Posting this army list to get some fresh ideas. First off, I play against black templars almost exclusively (because my friend plays BT, and more or less refuses to use any other army).

    So even though I have DH,IG,TAU,TYRANID, NECRON and some Dark Eldar armies, he sticks to black templar. This is fine, but the downside is that I often find myself making "anti space marine lists". This is a trend I'd like to change.

    My experience with DH have been that they own most other races/armies in CC (with the exception of Nids perhaps?) Thus I want to make the most of this. And after using DH allies in my 2500 points ig list, Ive fallen in love with large groups of terminators (this you might see reflected in the following army list.

    Anyways on to my army list .

    Its a 2500 pts list, for a friendly game vs black templar

    ------

    HQ Choice

    1 Grand Master - Storm Bolter - Nemesis Force Weapon -
    9 Grey Knight Terminators - Storm Bolter - Nemesis Force Weapon -

    ELITES Choice

    1 Brother Captain (Terminator) - Storm Bolter - Nemesis Force Weapon -
    9 Grey Knight Terminators - Storm Bolter - Nemesis Force Weapon -

    1 Brother Captain (Terminator) - Storm Bolter - Nemesis Force Weapon -
    9 Grey Knight Terminators - Storm Bolter - Nemesis Force Weapon -

    TROOP Choice

    1 Veteran IST - Hellgun - Targeter - Frag Grenades - Teleport Homer -
    2 IST - Hellgun - Targeter - Frag Grenades -
    2 IST - Meltagun - Targeter - Frag Grenades -
    TRANSPORT = CHIMERA - Multi Laser - Smoke Launcher -

    1 Veteran IST - Hellgun - Targeter - Frag Grenades - Teleport Homer -
    2 IST - Hellgun - Targeter - Frag Grenades -
    2 IST - Meltagun - Targeter - Frag Grenades -
    TRANSPORT = CHIMERA - Multi Laser - Smoke Launcher -

    1 Veteran IST - Hellgun - Targeter - Frag Grenades - Teleport Homer -
    2 IST - Hellgun - Targeter - Frag Grenades -
    2 IST - Meltagun - Targeter - Frag Grenades -
    TRANSPORT = CHIMERA - Multi Laser - Smoke Launcher -

    1 Grey Knight Brother Captain (Power Armour) - Storm Bolter - Nemesis Force Weapon -
    7 Grey Knight (Power Armour) - Storm Bolter - Nemesis Force Weapon -

    HEAVY SUPPORT Choice

    Grey Knight Land Raider - Extra Armour - Smoke Launcher -

    ------
    Total = 2511 (Me and my friend often let +-10-13 points slip on lists of this size)
    ------

    So I guess you can see were I am going with this list?
    The Problem I have with DH is that yes they are durable, but as I am a IG player as well, I know that you give a squad enough wounds then they will fail armor saves, just last game I lost 50% of my terminator retinue to puny bolter fire (damn 1's!). So walking GK seems to be a very very bad idea.

    Thus I have decided to try a new tactic.

    I intend to start with the (on table):

    Land Raider (with the 8 power armoured GK's in it)
    3 Chimeras w/ the IST's in them

    then make a mad dash towards his lines (and if i get in range pop the gk's and ISTs)

    After reading around about the Teleport Homer I understand that I can measure 6" from my IST veteran and place the first teleporting terminator there, and then the rest in a circle around (as per 4th ed deep strike rules) witth no scatter. (correct me if im wrong).

    This seems to be a huge advantage (drive 12", pop the ISTs, with the vet 2 " from the exit point, then deep strike Terminators a further 6" from the Veteran, for a total move of 12+2+6 = 20". Then fire the 20 storm bolter shots at any squad within 24" - Thus I can potentially hurt units 44" away from my start possition on turn 1.

    Again - Correct Me if im wrong.

    This is not supposed to be an anti marine list, even if it might look like it, I would really love to test several of my armies against someone NOT playing 3+ saves

    I know this list i severely lacking in high strength weapons. my sole anti tank is the land raider (with its two twin linked lascannons). But it is a CC list.

    Oh, and i took the Grand master for his superior initiative. Its a godsend to be able to potentially kill 5 enemy models that dont get to strike back .

    Anyways (long post) any ideas, hints tips?

    Thanks

    - Valthonis

    Last edited by Valthonis; August 7th, 2007 at 16:13. Reason: some point totals removed

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  3. #2
    WarmaHorde Pathofskulls's Avatar
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    A good rule of thumb to follow would be to only put total unit cost into your army list. If you have a program that is breaking it down then go back yourself and alter it.

    1 Grand Master - Storm Bolter - Nemesis Force Weapon -
    9 Grey Knight Terminators - Storm Bolter - Nemesis Force Weapon -

    ELITES Choice

    1 Brother Captain (Terminator) - Storm Bolter - Nemesis Force Weapon -
    9 Grey Knight Terminators - Storm Bolter - Nemesis Force Weapon -

    1 Brother Captain (Terminator) - Storm Bolter - Nemesis Force Weapon -
    9 Grey Knight Terminators - Storm Bolter - Nemesis Force Weapon -
    I think you'd do well to drop a few GKTs from each unit to get them psycannons. As many psycannons as possible.

    1 Veteran IST - Hellgun - Targeter - Frag Grenades - Teleport Homer -
    2 IST - Hellgun - Targeter - Frag Grenades -
    2 IST - Meltagun - Targeter - Frag Grenades -
    TRANSPORT = CHIMERA - Multi Laser - Smoke Launcher -

    1 Veteran IST - Hellgun - Targeter - Frag Grenades - Teleport Homer -
    2 IST - Hellgun - Targeter - Frag Grenades -
    2 IST - Meltagun - Targeter - Frag Grenades -
    TRANSPORT = CHIMERA - Multi Laser - Smoke Launcher -

    1 Veteran IST - Hellgun - Targeter - Frag Grenades - Teleport Homer -
    2 IST - Hellgun - Targeter - Frag Grenades -
    2 IST - Meltagun - Targeter - Frag Grenades -
    TRANSPORT = CHIMERA - Multi Laser - Smoke Launcher -
    Ok here your just wasting points. If your going to use chimera's at least transport full squads. Your better off getting Rhino's for these guys because they are cheaper, get the same job done and you don't have to waste as many points.

    You don't have enough anti-tank. 6 Meltaguns is nothing if your hiking them up 50% of the way.

    I like GKTs a lot as well but some reason to me this is over done and for all the talk about superior combat skills you don't have as many regular GKs as would seem good. Yeah GKTs got it slightly better, but foot slogging you really shouldn't be losing that many guys between the shrouding and your possible long range with storm bolters and psycannons.

    I would dumb down all the GKT squads to get more regular GKs into the army list.
    Legion Of Everblight: Abyslonia
    Protectorate of Menoth: Grand Exemplar Kreoss

  4. #3
    Senior Member Lyzaru's Avatar
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    I would drop the GKT squads to 6 man instead of 10 man and just make another squad of them if you want to have a lot of them. Also you are gonna be out numbered so much you will need your units to start on the field for you will want all the shooting you have to reduce his numbers before you enter melee. Also you would do better to have 2 anti tank dreads then 1 LR.
    - You must set fire to water or you will be extinguished.

  5. #4
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    I should probably have mentioned that we play on a table that about 98" X 48". Usually we play using the long edges as deployment, but the rare game uses the short sides. (this is very fun if I'm playing IG ) anyways, my experience with any unit that has such limited numbers as 10 (or 6 as suggested above) that walks such a relatively long distance will get shot to pieces. Even with a terminators god like save, enough shots will kill them, and every termi lost is a lot of points, fire power and CC goodness...

    I also thought about using more/only power armoured knights, but the reason I did not, is because they wont get power attacks. Thus my reasons for choosing as many terminators as I did are :

    1. Supreme Saves
    2. Power Attacks
    3. Deep striking

    My current experience with GKT's is very positive, they wipe the table with most enemies, black templar fully beefed sword brethren, anything that hits slower than them, even powerful black templar IC's must fall before their wrath.

    I cannot believe that a mere 10 PAGK's would be able to do the same, just using the sword brethren as an example, they have power weapons, a lot of them, and PAGK's do not, they also strike at the same time. so the best I can hope for is a draw, but the termies have power weapons of their own, and they also have the invulnerable save. Thus making them superior.?

    I also had a reason for choosing half strength squads of IST's. Mainly this was a issue of having enough points for the terminators and land raider. But also, it is my firm belief that IST's are not worth their points against most armies. due to the extreme amount of ap4 and better weapons they are likely to face, and with a low toughness... :cry:

    I really bought them and the transports as a way to get the teleport homers were I need them quickly and relatively cheaply. They are not really meant to do anything else than that. If they are able to do something useful during a game, all the better . And I am going to think about taking Rhino's instead of Chimeras, it just seemed that the chimeras better armor would be beneficial ?

    Also, taking psycannons on terminators, seems like a bad idea? since my codex says they will be a heavy weapon all the time, and last i checked, one can not fire heavy weapons and then charge in assault. And with a CC themed army, this seems like a bad trade of ?

    I did think about just deep striking the termies normally, but the fact that the unit dies if any model hits a friendly unit,enemy unit, wall , cliff and so on, seems like a very big gamble with a lot of points`?


    As for anti tank, my hopes were that the only army that would be giving me trouble would be the imperial guard and occasional land raider, as most other vehicles have a lower armour value, thus enabling my trusty termies and pagk's do down them in a tide of CC attacks. perhaps I should buy melta bombs for the GM, and brother captains?

    Thanks for the hints so far

    - Valthonis

  6. #5
    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valthonis View Post
    HQ Choice

    1 Grand Master - Storm Bolter - Nemesis Force Weapon -
    9 Grey Knight Terminators - Storm Bolter - Nemesis Force Weapon -

    ELITES Choice

    1 Brother Captain (Terminator) - Storm Bolter - Nemesis Force Weapon -
    9 Grey Knight Terminators - Storm Bolter - Nemesis Force Weapon -

    1 Brother Captain (Terminator) - Storm Bolter - Nemesis Force Weapon -
    9 Grey Knight Terminators - Storm Bolter - Nemesis Force Weapon -
    Seriously, too many termies. It's costing you so very many infantry models that, as you note yourself, concentrated fire will take them down. Remember that when you deep strike you're sitting ducks for at least one turn. Possibly more if you can't use a TP homer and get a bad scatter.

    I'd reduce each and every GKT squad to 5-6 models, get a pair of psycannons in each one, and spend the rest of the recovered points on PAGK/FAGK models. You must shore up your infantry core. If you give psycannons to a modest-sized GKT squad, you actually have one of the best footslogging units in the entire game. Especially on a board as large as the ones you apparently play on, the shrouding + termie armour will keep your GKTs alive and untouched for as long as you like while you pepper your enemy with psycannon dakka. Move into assault range only when it suits you. After all, who wants to fight against GKTs in assault?
    Quote Originally Posted by Valthonis
    TROOP Choice

    1 Veteran IST - Hellgun - Targeter - Frag Grenades - Teleport Homer -
    2 IST - Hellgun - Targeter - Frag Grenades -
    2 IST - Meltagun - Targeter - Frag Grenades -
    TRANSPORT = CHIMERA - Multi Laser - Smoke Launcher -

    1 Veteran IST - Hellgun - Targeter - Frag Grenades - Teleport Homer -
    2 IST - Hellgun - Targeter - Frag Grenades -
    2 IST - Meltagun - Targeter - Frag Grenades -
    TRANSPORT = CHIMERA - Multi Laser - Smoke Launcher -

    1 Veteran IST - Hellgun - Targeter - Frag Grenades - Teleport Homer -
    2 IST - Hellgun - Targeter - Frag Grenades -
    2 IST - Meltagun - Targeter - Frag Grenades -
    TRANSPORT = CHIMERA - Multi Laser - Smoke Launcher -
    These guys would be better off in Rhinos. With Chimeras, you're going to be too concerned with keeping the front side only exposed to enemy fire, and you'll want to fire off the Chimera's awesome weaponry. Rhinos should be used for rushing the enemy; that's what they're good at. Chimeras should be used as a light tank/fire support vehicle. If you want Chimeras, take a large squad of ISTs and give 'em 2x plasma guns and set up a firebase.
    Quote Originally Posted by Valthonis
    1 Grey Knight Brother Captain (Power Armour) - Storm Bolter - Nemesis Force Weapon -
    7 Grey Knight (Power Armour) - Storm Bolter - Nemesis Force Weapon -
    Great! Excellent! More! You need more! PAGKs/FAGKs are the core of any quality DH army. Believe it or not, for the points, a 9-model GK squad (250 pts) will outperform a 5-model GKT squad (245 pts) at the general task of infantry suppression. You've got almost twice as many wounds, high-strength attacks, and shots. And you still got shrouding, which makes fine protection even if you footslog 'em, shooting all the way. You want multiple 8-10 model PAGK/FAGK squads as you can get. GKTs are awesome, all right, but they should be reserved for taking on the most potent assault units of your opponent. They're specialists, not generalists. Overall, PAGKs/FAGKs are a better buy for the points.
    Quote Originally Posted by Valthonis
    HEAVY SUPPORT Choice

    Grey Knight Land Raider - Extra Armour - Smoke Launcher -
    If you're not going to take at least two of these tanks, don't bother. You need multiples in order to prevent yourself from handing over a big chunk of VPs to your opponent. At 2500 pts, there's every reason to believe that a single raider will fall to a lucky shot early in the game. You'd be better off taking two GK dreads -- TLLC/ML -- for the cost of a single raider if you want anti-armour weaponry from distance.

    Otherwise, if you're mostly fighting just MEQ infantry, and few vehicles, why aren't you getting an entire squad of GKs instead of this fragile, one-wound vehicle?
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
    RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014

  7. #6
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    well, I have made some changes to the list (albeit minor ones) and re-calculated some points. Leaving me with this list :

    HQ -
    Grand Master
    Retinue – 9 GK Terminators

    ELITE -
    Brother Captain
    9 GK Terminators

    Brother Captain
    9 GK Terminators

    TROOP –
    1 VET IST – Teleport Homer
    2 IST's
    2 IST's – Meltagun
    Transport – Rhino – Storm Bolter – Smoke - Extra Armour

    1 VET IST – Teleport Homer
    2 IST's
    2 IST's – Meltagun
    Transport – Rhino – Storm Bolter – Smoke - Extra Armour

    1 VET IST – Teleport Homer
    2 IST's
    2 IST's – Meltagun
    Transport – Rhino – Storm Bolter – Smoke - Extra Armour

    1 GK Justicar in power armour
    9 Grey Knights in power armour

    HEAVY SUPPORT
    Dreadnought – Twin Linked LasCannon – Missile Launcher -
    Dreadnought – Twin Linked LasCannon – Missile Launcher –


    Total = 2508


    Leaving me with the following models

    1 Grand Master (Terminator)
    2 Brother Captain (Terminator)
    27 GK Terminators
    9 GK Power Armor
    1 GK Power Armor Justicar
    12 IST
    3 IST Veterans
    3 Rhinos
    2 Dreadnoughts


    I really want to see what this list can pull off, so I am going to try it out. Its really to bad that the only person I can try it out against only plays Black Templar, but heck, what does good against a MEQ list usually has a shot against any non MEQ list right? (that is , not counting enemy tanks )

    Anyways, if (or you might say, when) my list crashes and burns, I'll be sure to let you know about it so you can say "we told you so".

    Thanks for the tips, they all make sense, but I cant shake the image of 29 terminators and a Grand Master smashing their way through the enemy forces.
    Last edited by Valthonis; August 7th, 2007 at 23:32.

  8. #7
    Senior Member spaar's Avatar
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    Here's your answer to the question about the Psycannons: You have the option of firing them as a Heavy Weapon with 36" range, or as an Assault weapon with 18 inch range. Since you should never need more than 18" to assault... then you can shoot and assault with them.

    Tanks will give you problems. Skimmers will be even more of a headache (especially Eldar). But, they always are anyway. Hitting on 6's is no fun.


    I think the second list has a better chance of surviving than the first, but it will still be tough. Hopefully your Rhinos survive long enough to get your troops into place.

    Good Luck.

    -Spaar
    Currently Playing:
    Fantasy: Daemons (Angels), 40k: Black Templars

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