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  1. #1
    Senior Member spaar's Avatar
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    1500 List creation Challenge!!!!!!!!

    Ok, so I have a list created that I have been wanting to create for fluff reasons, but I'm having some small points issues and so I was wondering what to cut from the list.

    Instead of just posting the list and doing the usual ho-hum critique it, I thought that I'd draw a little more creativity from people's brains by issuing a challenge to anybody!!! So, here it is:

    Create a 1500 point Tournament list with the following restrictions:

    1) You must use Daemonhunters as your Parent Army

    2) You must include a Grand Master as your HQ

    3) You must include at least 2 units of Grey Knights in Power Armor

    4) You must include a Leman Russ in one of your Heavy slots.

    5) You must include a flying Canoness and a Seraphim squad, and both must be fitted to take out SKIMMERS.

    This should be a little more fun than just telling me what to cut, because perhaps by doing it this way I'll get Ideas that I didn't think of before.

    Thanks for your participation, and have fun!!!!:party:

    -Spaar

    Currently Playing:
    Fantasy: Daemons (Angels), 40k: Black Templars

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  3. #2
    Senior Member spaar's Avatar
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    Anybody who participates and submits a good list will get a rep point from me!! :party:

    Ok, so that's not that exciting but it's better than nothing!

    -Spaar
    Currently Playing:
    Fantasy: Daemons (Angels), 40k: Black Templars

  4. #3
    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    Heh. I know you mean well, spaar, but you're not looking for a challenge, you're looking for someone to build you your list using an extremely restrictive set of criteria. (In fact, I think it's flatly impossible to do everything you want in a mere 1500 pts.) Why not offer your rep points to people who can solve your penny-pinching woes in a way that you find helpful?

    After you've posted your proposed list, of course.
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
    RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014

  5. #4
    PP is my master now... Hasten's Avatar
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    Heh, I'm sorry to say that number6 is right -- It's pretty hard to do all the things you want at this points level. The best I could do was something like this:

    HQ - GKGM - 145

    HQ - Canoness - 125
    (Eviscerator, Inferno Pistol, Jump Pack, Cloak of +1 armour save)

    Troops - GK (Justicar + - 250

    Troops - GK (Justicar + - 250

    Troops - Armoured Fist Squad - 184 (?)
    (Veteran Srg, Lascannon)
    (Chimera, Hull HB, Multilaser, XA, SL)

    Troops - Armoured Fist Squad - 184 (?)
    (Veteran Srg, Lascannon)
    (Chimera, Hull HB, Multilaser, XA, SL)

    Heavy - Leman Russ Battle Tank - 163
    (Hull HB, HB Sponsons, XA, SL)

    Fast - Seraphim (VSS + 5) - 197
    (Twin Inferno Pistols x2)
    (VSS w/ Eviscerator)

    Total - 1498

    Note that the points may be off on the Armoured Fist squads, as I don't have my IG 'dex handy. I really wish I could scrounge the points for a psycannon on the GM, but I really don't know where to get them =). The Seraphim and Canoness are about as good as you'll get for hunting skimmers. They're not really great at the job, though, because their only real tank-hunting options are only effective inside of 6".

    Hope it's somewhat helpful

    -H
    Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind.
    -George Orwell

    www.drmcninja.com
    If you're intruiged by doctors who are also ninjas, then this is the webcomic for you!

  6. #5
    Senior Member spaar's Avatar
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    Well, while I don't blame you for thinking so number 6, the truth is that I do have a list made up. The problem is that I know that I am attached to bringing certain units, and so I left only the ones in that I REALLY wanted to keep. The ones that I cut out were:

    -Land Raider crusader, Terminators, Sentinels, Dread.

    Here's the list that I created:

    HQ:

    GM

    Canoness
    -Jump Pack, Cloak, Combi-Melta, Power Weapon

    TROOPS:

    2 x 8 PAGK

    2 x | Armoured Fist Squad |
    | -Lascannon Heavy Weapons Team |
    | -Chimera w/ Multi-Laser, Heavy Bolter |

    FAST ATTACK:

    Seraphim Squad x 8
    - 2 x Inferno Pistols
    - Veteran Superior w/ Combi-Melta, Power Weapon

    HEAVY SUPPORT:

    Leman Russ Battle Tank
    - Lascannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Extra Armor

    That puts me at 1456. What I want to do is fit in a TLLC Dread... yeah. By dropping the Lascannons off the AF squads, I get 50 more points, but it's still not enough.

    Do you think that the Seraphim squad would suffer if I dropped 1 or two from it for the dread?

    Maybe I don't need the dread, maybe I have enough anti-tank as it is. If so, I could give my GM a Psycannon and... something else for 14 points...

    -Spaar
    Currently Playing:
    Fantasy: Daemons (Angels), 40k: Black Templars

  7. #6
    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spaar View Post
    Well, while I don't blame you for thinking so number 6, the truth is that I do have a list made up. The problem is that I know that I am attached to bringing certain units, and so I left only the ones in that I REALLY wanted to keep. The ones that I cut out were:

    -Land Raider crusader, Terminators, Sentinels, Dread.
    You might be better served by rethinking the whys of your unit selection, as opposed to just using the models you like best. You might end up getting something far more useful and fun to play.
    Quote Originally Posted by spaar
    HQ:

    GM
    I assume you want the GM for his combat prowess. Consider that, without a retinue, he's really pretty easy to kill. You can reasonably footslog him into an assault (deep striking would just strand him and get him killed), but without GKTs surrounding him, your opponents will easily swamp him, even if you've got another unit in the same assault (e.g., PAGKs).

    Considering everything else you want and how you want to use them, I would suggest that you focus your assaulty efforts on PAGKs instead. Take the BC with a psycannon as a support unit. He'll do that task better than a naked GM can (but for fewer points) for two reasons. Firstly, he's got that psycannon! You can range him around forever safe because of his IC status if you like, you can deep strike him for shots at rear armour. And secondly, you can throw him into an assault for support if you like and not lose a whole lot if he dies while still giving you multiple power weapon attacks.
    Quote Originally Posted by spaar
    Canoness
    -Jump Pack, Cloak, Combi-Melta, Power Weapon
    You don't want a combi-melta, you want an inferno pistol. Same cost, but you get unlimited uses. It ain't no thang to get her within 3" for the superior penetration dice, either. And if it is a problem, you should use the eviscerator to slice it up. Because, of course, you're going to spring for the eviscerator, it's only 15 pts more, but it's worth it. It is far more versatile than a simple power weapon. Besides, if you spend her two faith points, you can have a 2+ invulnerable save and a S10 chainfist! She's actually much nastier than a GM ... provided she has faith to power her. You don't have enough to make her a true monster, but she's still no slouch as is. Judicious use of Faith will take you far.
    Quote Originally Posted by spaar
    TROOPS:

    2 x 8 PAGK

    2 x | Armoured Fist Squad |
    | -Lascannon Heavy Weapons Team |
    | -Chimera w/ Multi-Laser, Heavy Bolter |
    These are all great. (You do have extra armour and smoke on the Chimeras, yes?) Thoughts on the armoured fists below.
    Quote Originally Posted by spaar
    FAST ATTACK:

    Seraphim Squad x 8
    - 2 x Inferno Pistols
    - Veteran Superior w/ Combi-Melta, Power Weapon
    I would skip the combi-melta on the VSS and instead spend those points upgrading her power weapon to an eviscerator ... for all the reasons outlined above for the canonness. It's too bad you can't give her an inferno pistol, but with two twin-linked ones in the squad, she doesn't need it, either.

    Now, if you're looking for a cheap tank-hunting unit and nothing else, you can get away with dropping the VSS and her upgrades, and reducing the squad down to just 6 models with 2x infernos. They're a one-trick pony, but a pretty good trick. Fragile, however. I personally do prefer the larger squad size and the investment into the VSS for added staying power, assault power, and flexibility.
    Quote Originally Posted by spaar
    HEAVY SUPPORT:

    Leman Russ Battle Tank
    - Lascannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Extra Armor
    I suspect that this is the reason you went for the armoured fists, and that if you didn't need them for the russ, they wouldn't be here at all.

    That said, the armoured fists are great units the way you've got them kittted out. Combined with the Seraphim -- and even a psycannon-toting BC -- you've got a decent amount of anti-armour to get by at 1500 pts. And the russ is about the best tank in the game.

    Frankly, I think sentinels will work better in this list than the flying canonness, as cool as she is. I'd drop her and replace with a squad of sentinels with autocannons. Also great tank-hunting units, but good at heavy infantry hunting, too, something that your list is a little weak on.

    If you're sweet on GKTs, you can get 3 or 4 and a psycannon, too, for your BC retinue. Still range them around, but then you have a potent assault unit too when the need arises.

    Your other option is to forgo all IG inductees and make a more traditional GK list with WH allies like many of us do. You've probably seen a lot of those around here by now. You should be able to afford a land raider crusader and a dread, though I would recommend against the LRC unless you also drop enough points to include a 3rd armoured unit at a minimum. I'd also still avoid the GM and prefer a BC with a psycannon. Pack one of the PAGK units into the LRC if you like, but there probably isn't a way to afford both enough armour to help dilute the fire gunning for the LRC and GKTs. It's either one or the other at this points level.

    Hope that helps.
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
    RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014

  8. #7
    Senior Member spaar's Avatar
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    I know that a lot of people advise the Eviscerators for the Canoness, and I definately see why they do. For the sake of discussion, here is my reasoning for their equipment:

    -The eviscerators will only hit on 6's against Skimmers, so therefore sure, I'm getting more attacks, but they're rarely going to hit and do damage to Tau/Eldar vehicles (I play a lot of Tau/Eldar opponents, maybe that's why I think differently about eviscerators).

    -The eviscerators will hit last in assault (if they count as a powerfist that is), but she does get 3 str 6 or 10 hits in return, and with her invulnerable save she'll be able to do so. The rest of the squad will be able to attack before her, and may not kill enough which could be a problem as an enemy could potentially kill more Seraphim off.

    -The Melta guns combined with Jump packs have a 24" shooting range and an 18" melta range. She will be hitting the vehicles on 2s and most likely scoring a pen hit. This is important against skimmers because The VSS will be doing the same. If I'm within Melta Range, then the Inferno pistols will also be in range to take a pot shot at a vehicle. Against other vehicles, I'll easily be able to move the Seraphim into good positions to gun them down, and the Inferno Pistols can get into their "melta" range easier.

    -By joining the canoness with the Seraphim, they lose their hit and run ability. Seraphim aren't ideal assault troops anyways. I don't really want to get them into CC, so by giving them the multi-meltas I can pump out 10 bolt pistol shots, 4 inferno pistol shots, and 2 melta shots. This is pretty good against heavily armoured troops. Against lighter troops, I am able to shoot the bolters once and then assault, which I'll then have 5 power weapon attacks and a bunch of other strength 3 attacks. If I choose the eviscerators, I won't get to kill off as many before hurtling myself into the assault.

    Like I said, this squad is fitted more for Skimmer (note the word skimmer and not tank) hunting, but it also has the ability to assault pretty well and do some good damage.

    Dropping the GM down to a psycannon BC was one of my ideas as well. You don't think that a GM would do well inside one of the PAGK squads? I understand that during shooting he'll only get a 3+ save, but he's still the monster that he is in Close Combat.

    The armoured fists do 4 things in this list: They hold table quarters, They bring a lascannon, they bring a Chimera, and they give me access to the Russ.

    The whole list is based a lot on fluff, and I would like to get it competitive as well. The story is this: The GM and the Canoness started falling in love, something which they obviously weren't supposed to do. They never acted upon it however, not even a kiss or flirting or anything. It was still apparent to those who were around the GM and Canoness, however, and eventually word reached higher powers of this "treachery". However, since the GM and Canoness hadn't acted upon their feelings, they had no grounds to condemn them on, so they thought of something different: They put them in charge of an IG Penal Legion and sent them on Suicide missions, hoping to either find them dead or break their will and force them to act upon their feelings for each other so that they could finally condemn them. There were some Grey Knights and Seraphim who were angered by this "sentence" and so they followed the GM and Canoness into battle wherever they went. Despite their unfair sentence, they were all Loyal to the Emperor in every way and continued to fight in his name no matter the circumstances.

    The IG inductees that I have are Catachans (the Prisoners in the Penal Legion). Some IG "Wardens" lead them into battle, and they have their "prisoner transports" (the Chimeras). The tank is there for some fighting effectiveness and to make the mission appointed to these 2 look legitimate instead of as suicide missions.

    Thanks for responding #6, you're a very reliable knowledge pool.

    -Spaar
    Last edited by spaar; August 30th, 2007 at 03:03.
    Currently Playing:
    Fantasy: Daemons (Angels), 40k: Black Templars

  9. #8
    PP is my master now... Hasten's Avatar
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    The problem I see with kitting your Canoness out the way she is, is she's only going to get one melta shot the whole game. Since it's a skimmer you're shooting at, it'll be downgraded to a glancing shot even if you score a penetrating hit. After this one glancing hit, she basically can't touch a vehicle at all. So, you can see why the single-shot combi-melta is going to be a bit iffy against vehicles in general, and skimmers especially, compared to the inferno pistol.

    Regarding close combat, she may strike sooner with the power weapon, but she's only striking at her rather low human strength. If you want a weapon that goes at her normal initiative value, I'd recommend taking a look at getting her a blessed weapon. You won't get the extra attack for having two 1-handed weapons, but you get boosted strength which should more than make up for it. Still, since you're looking for anti-skimmer duty, it makes more sense to me to kit her out with an anti-vehicle close combat weapon, even though you're hitting on 6s.

    My two cents, anyways

    -H
    Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind.
    -George Orwell

    www.drmcninja.com
    If you're intruiged by doctors who are also ninjas, then this is the webcomic for you!

  10. #9
    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spaar View Post
    -The eviscerators will only hit on 6's against Skimmers, so therefore sure, I'm getting more attacks, but they're rarely going to hit and do damage to Tau/Eldar vehicles (I play a lot of Tau/Eldar opponents, maybe that's why I think differently about eviscerators).

    -The eviscerators will hit last in assault (if they count as a powerfist that is), but she does get 3 str 6 or 10 hits in return, and with her invulnerable save she'll be able to do so. The rest of the squad will be able to attack before her, and may not kill enough which could be a problem as an enemy could potentially kill more Seraphim off.
    Normally, you don't want to assault skimmers anyway. Although with Seraphim you really can because everyone's got krak grenades for free. Think of the eviscerator as giving your Seraphim 3 attempts (because you're always charging a vehicle) instead of just one to pop the skimmer in an assault; only you're doing it with an extra penetration die, too! So still useful.

    But the real reason the eviscerator should be present is for flexibility. If you are forced into an assault, the eviscerator is just about the only tool allied SoB units have -- because they're starved for Faith -- to keep them alive and performing. In a full SoB army, most people still employ eviscerators, but they become less important because there's an immense pool of Faith to cover the combat and tactical flexibility shortfall. In a DH army, you don't have that luxury; eviscerators are very nearly required.
    Quote Originally Posted by spaar
    -The Melta guns combined with Jump packs have a 24" shooting range and an 18" melta range. She will be hitting the vehicles on 2s and most likely scoring a pen hit. This is important against skimmers because The VSS will be doing the same. If I'm within Melta Range, then the Inferno pistols will also be in range to take a pot shot at a vehicle. Against other vehicles, I'll easily be able to move the Seraphim into good positions to gun them down, and the Inferno Pistols can get into their "melta" range easier.

    -By joining the canoness with the Seraphim, they lose their hit and run ability. Seraphim aren't ideal assault troops anyways. I don't really want to get them into CC, so by giving them the multi-meltas I can pump out 10 bolt pistol shots, 4 inferno pistol shots, and 2 melta shots. This is pretty good against heavily armoured troops. Against lighter troops, I am able to shoot the bolters once and then assault, which I'll then have 5 power weapon attacks and a bunch of other strength 3 attacks. If I choose the eviscerators, I won't get to kill off as many before hurtling myself into the assault.
    You appear to be forgetting how combi-weapons work. Melta guns are not available for Seraphim or Canonesses; just combi-meltas, which are one shot weapons. You get one and only one melta shot with them, then they're nothing but mere bolters for the rest of the game. Inferno pistols cost you just 3" of range, but are forever "melta guns", and they cost the same as a combi-melta. There's no reason to ever choose a combi-melta. Even on a VSS because she's toting a squad with two twin-linked infernos around her. She doesn't need a melta gun, she needs to be the eviscerator caddy. Costs you the same points, but you get added utility at the cost of nothing.

    Again, though, you can really save points by taking 6 girls with 2x infernos and that's it.

    Also, you should never join a Canoness to Seraphim. Go ahead and coordinate their flights and combat actions if you like, but do not join her to the squad. She needs to remain entirely independent for tactical flexibility, and your Seraphim need to retain the ability to Hit-and-Run. Hit-and-Run isn't just a defensive capability, it's also an offensive weapon, allowing you to slingshot your girls around the battlefield faster than almost any unit in the game, including bikes and vehicles.
    Quote Originally Posted by spaar
    Dropping the GM down to a psycannon BC was one of my ideas as well. You don't think that a GM would do well inside one of the PAGK squads? I understand that during shooting he'll only get a 3+ save, but he's still the monster that he is in Close Combat.
    Don't join a naked GK hero to any squad! Concentrated fire can wipe them out. Take advantage of their independent character status to keep them safe from being targeted.
    In assault, without at GKT retinue, the GM isn't all that. Yes, he'll get an extra attack over and beyond a BC, and at one higher initiative (if that matters), but otherwise he's the obvious target for counter attacks. He will get swamped and killed. He doesn't have insta-kill protection. If he's not surrounded by relative equals, the enemy has every incentive to take your mots potent model away and gift himself with a massive chunk of VPs in the bargain. Oh, and still save a few attacks for the PAGKs there, too.

    The BC is better because even with a psycannon, he's cheaper than a GM, and so not as painful to lose, nor as tempting to throw into an assault where he'll get killed. The psycannon + IC status makes him deadlier than the GM over the course of a game.
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
    RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014

  11. #10
    Senior Member spaar's Avatar
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    Aha, now I understand why people don't use combi-meltas. I never knew that it was a one-shot weapon... I don't recall seeing rules about that (though they no doubt exist). So in that light, the Eviscerator (or the Blessed Weapon for the Canoness) is better. I concede.

    Thanks for bringing that to light.

    @ Hasten: Your armored fist squads are 178, so you weren't off by much.

    Thanks for the help again, it seems that you two are there to answer my questions when I try something new.

    -Spaar
    Currently Playing:
    Fantasy: Daemons (Angels), 40k: Black Templars

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