Welcome to Librarium Online!
.....don't be gentle - it's kinder in the long run.
I'm starting a 1500pt Pre-Heresy Army (modelling started, but don't know which chapter yet) and I would like all you toothless veterans out there to appraise and rip the cr*p out of my first thoughts on army composition.
Here goes (deep breath):
Advantage: Honour Your Wargear
Drawback: Death Before Dishonour
Codicier with Storm of the Emperor's Wrath, Force Weapon, Psychic Hood, Terminator Armour and Storm Shield (135pts).
Terminator Sergeant with Storm Bolter and Power Weapon.
2 x Terminators with Assault Cannon and Powerfist (please ignore fluff issues).
1 x Terminator with Storm Bolter and Powerfist (200pts).
6 Devestators with 4 x Heavy Bolters and Infilrate (168pts).
6 Devestators with 2 x Missle Launchers, 2 x Multimeltas and Infiltrate (188pts).
Veteran Sergeant with Powerfist and Boltpistol
7 x Marines
Rhino with Extra Armour and Smoke Launchers (208pts).
4 x Scouts with Sniper Rifles
1 x Scout with Heavy Bolter (90pts).
7 x Scouts with Boltguns
1 x Scout with Heavy Bolter (109pts).
Landspeeder Tornado (Heavy Bolter and Assault Cannon) (80pts).
Landspeeder Tornado (Heavy Bolter and Assault Cannon) (80pts).
6 x Assualt Marines (132pts).
Predator Destructor with Heavy Bolter Sponsons (110pts).
I have considered how to play this force and it seems to me that the ability to infiltate give the Devestators a great advantage by deploying last and knowing where the key targets are in advance. This would form the main axis of defence.
The Scouts are there mainly as a 'speed bump' and to try and pin units with their sniper rifles.
The Tactical Marines and Predator are a kind of mobile reserve and can support either the left or right edge of the Devestators deployment area.
Command HQ can 'lay the smack down' on either the rear of the enemy lines - drawing off units from the main battle or along a threatened flank with the Assualt Marines in direct support.
Finally, the Landspeeders are there as a nuisence threat to both infantry and light vehicles, claiming objectives at the last minute.
What are people's thoughts????
Looking forward to your reply and remember.....don't be kind.
Mods - sorry if this is in the wrong place - please forgive me - PLEASE!!!
Last edited by tangomegadeath; October 12th, 2007 at 21:04. Reason: Added Apology
first off: army lists should go in the army lists section. A mod will certainly move it there for you, but you can save them the trouble next time!
I would upgrade the codicier to an epistolary. He has only half the chance (1/12 instead of 1/6) of failing a psychic test or using his psychic hood or fail a morale test.
Your devastators are a little low on model count. I like infiltrating them (great tactical advantage), but I don't see how mixing multimeltas and missile launchers would turn out very well. One is half the range of the other and to be really effective has to be up front, where your small squads will quickly run out of meat shields.
The 5-man scout squad should get one more model, if possible. That will keep the unit scoring for one more casualty and will greatly enhance your chances of wounding someone with the sniper rifles and cause the target to eventually be pinned.
The assault marines could use a veteran sergeant with a power fist. It really enhances the squads efficiency (against MEQs you will cause about three times as many casualties in an assault against an enemy squad, for example). They would also benefit from larger size (8 models are fine).
The predator is the only real armour in a 1,500 points list (the rhino and speeders can be shot down with mass normal weaponry too). That will focus all enemy anti-tank against it, and probably it wouldn't get to do much before it's blown up. Maybe you could drop it in order to pay for the other changes. Though that would leave the single rhino VERY prone...
Why not give your tactical squad a special weapon? They will have good use for it.
Let's round it up: if you want to charge up ahead you won't do much good if you advance a single squad. So you'd have to speed the rhino and the assault marines up ahead, leaving you with a pretty slow, single countercharge unit (terminators) protecting a rather large firebase. I don't like this kind of army build, but that's a matter of personal taste.
If you're interested in what I would do anyhow, then I must say there is a myriad of possibilies. One would be to drop the predator and scouts, add another rhino tactical squad, boost the assault squad and the devastators. But if you like your scouts this won't be a viable option.
Please tell me what you want your army to do, maybe how you usually deploy and play and what opponents you are up against. Then, perhaps, I can be of more help.
Good luck and have fun gaming!
I prettymuch agree with Red Archer; the main point being squad size - I always use big squads (for Codex reasons as much as anything) and find their increased survivability a huge boon.
Epistolary is definitely the way to go if he is leading your force, you need the extra stats for your primary assaulty death marine I'd also kit him out with another power since you've spent that much already, I always find Veil of Time good for an assault oriented Librarian but it's a matter of preference really.
I never find marine-carried multimeltas worth the points so I would certainly drop them in favour of something with more range (you may be infiltrating but it always comes in handy).
I'd also drop the Pred in favour of something else, maybe a Dreadnought as they always do well for me, or a Whirlwind as that fits with your shooty fluff and they are awesome for what little points you pay for them.
Obviously this is just my opinion
I'm going to rip this list up with Fluff issues.
Librarians were look down upon. Only thousand sons openly said "We have psykers, and we are proud of it!". Now game wise why would he have terminator armour and storm shield? You don't need either. Terminator armour was pretty rare, and storm shields wouldn't go well with your shooty terminator squad.
Legions had a squad or 2 of terminators, but they didn't have storm bolters, power fists, and especially no assault cannons.
Devastators are alright. Multi meltas weren't as widespread as they are now, but you don't have too many so nothing wring there.
For troops it seems a bit odd. Powerfists were still not common, and powerswords and chain swords were more common. Scouts are alright, but Legions were known for having many troops. 1 squad of marines doesn't represent that well.
Land speeders were not as common, and assault cannons were not used. If you modeled them as autocannons then used "count as" then it would be alright.
Right now your list and traits represend none of the Legions. Sorry, but this is not a pre heresy list. Codex Chaos Space Marines is better for representing PH.
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I'm not a graybeard, but here's my two cents:
I like the infiltrating devestators a lot, and I think I understand your thinking with the melta/missile mix - the meltas can put down any nearby vehicles, and the missiles let you stay effective at range if the meltas aren't close enough and give you a bit of extra anti-infantry power. Nonetheless, I agree that you're probably better off picking one or the other and going with it (the missiles, in my opinion).
I also agree that your vehicles are pretty vulnerable. The pred is going to buy it fast, and even with smoke launchers the rhino could see a lot of fire before it drops it's marines. As previously suggested, you might want to consider dumping the pred and replacing it with more/bigger squads, as most of the squads seem pretty small. I would consider dumping the larger (sniper-less) squad of scouts with that in mind as well.
Ok, that's really quite fair on all of the points raised above.
Really, sharp, hard blows to the head are the keys to me learning (quite literally in some cases!).
I should point out that although I know the rules inside out, I've not played a game with the 'new' rule set yet so my battlefield experience is somewhat limited.
Hopefully, with you guys helping me I can build an effective force that will win games against all lists (including having a good shot against min/max).
Firstly, and sorry to be REALLY stupid but what is an MEQ?
The army list was probably a case of wanting to have my cake and eat it but I agree with you on the model count, both for the Devestators and Assault Marines.
I'll try to bump that up, probably by losing the 5 strong Scouts + a few other bits.
Oh, and lose the Multi-Meltas.
In general I want to have a force that can deploy in several different ways - hence the use of infiltrating models and deep striking Terminators and Assault squad.
I like keeping the opponent guessing about my deployment.
I like the idea of a solid fire base with a couple of units nipping around causing mayhem!!!!
Is there an effective way of playing this way?
If I lost the rhino and used the trait 'see but don't be seen' I could infiltrate both Devestator squads and the Tactical Marines.
Losing the Rhino would also force me to ditch the Predator.
The Epistolary I'm not so sure about, could you explain your thinking to me?
(I'm trying to get back into the statistical way of thinking).
I'll definately consider either a Dread or Whirlwind - fluff permitting....
You are of course correct on most points there!!!
If I'm honest, although I knew all the points mentioned I hadn't really considered how to best configure the list to the legions.
I personally find that the CSM codex is a little restrictive in terms of available choices although I do agree that it would better represent the legions (oddly, the old one would have been better!!)
Do you have any suggestions that would fit the broad theme mentioned above?
THANKS TO YOU ALL FOR YOUR TIME ON THIS.
Please keep the comments coming and this list WILL be completed!!!!!(!)
Oh, and don't be kind!
Last edited by tangomegadeath; October 11th, 2007 at 18:04.
"MEQ" stands for "Marine EQuivalent" and is used to designate all those armies based on powerarmored troops or those with equivalent armor saves.
If you plan on deep-striking the assault squads and the terminator squad: okay. But be careful! I usually deep-strike only small amounts of the army (one or two squads of terminators) or the army at whole (drop pods). Having only half of your army on the table is quite a risk, because beating you in small fragments will be quite easy ("divide et impera", old latin war wisdom). Your assault squads will be fast enough to reach any point of the battle-field at the time they would come in deep-striking. Of course on the field they run the risk being shot, but you can take cover and save the lives of the rest of your army, while in turn you avoid the risks of deep-striking. Remember they can't move or assault on the turn they land, and they may die due to a bad scatter! I will hopefully post some advice on deep-striking soon, maybe keep an eye out for it.
The terminators can deal out quite some firepower on the move, so maybe they are better to deploy from turn one too. Think about it.
About the Epistolary-thing: its a Ld problem. There is only one combination to roll 12 on 2d6 and two combinations to roll an 11. Together that's three. But there's also three combinations to roll a 10, meaning that if a ten fails your test your chance is double that compared to when you need at least an 11 to fail (3/36 compared to 6/36).
Sorry I am not going into depth very much right now. Time problem... I'll come back later, if there's still anything open!
Woops. Remember to post your army lists in the Army List section.
Would you mind posting pictures of your models. I wish to see your progress and what they will look like. Make a new thread in the conversion section, then like it here so we can find it easier.
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