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  1. #1
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    stab in the dark

    I want to start cadians as I really like the models but I wasn't sure what to do. Like I said I took a bit of a guess and what might be an effective list.

    HQ
    H. S. Officer w/ powerfsit, two meltaguns, squad has commisar with powerfist

    Elites
    10 vets w/ rocket launcher and 3 plasmaguns

    Troops
    Ifantry Platoon:
    3 squads with heavy bolters
    Officer squad w/ powerfist, two meltaguns, squad has commisar with powerfist

    Infantry Platoon:
    3 squads with heavy bolters
    Officer squad w/ powerfist, two meltaguns, squad has commisar with powerfist

    Conscript platoon
    2 squads

    Heavy support
    2 leman russ tanks w/ heavy bolter, no sponsons
    basilisk w/ indirect

    The command squads are there for counter attacking. With each squad carrying 6 powerfist attacks with them and more for charging they pack a bit of a punch (pun intended.) However I wonder if they might not be needed and that I should just have more troops. The platoons are just mass fire, 6 heavy bolters ought to do that. I'd like some more AT but i'm not one for wasting firepower, I just have to hope the vets and the tanks will take care of them.

    I'd apprecicate any changes as I realise as a beginner to Guard i'm not going to get everything right. I'd like to say that i'm using cadian doctrines and I REALLY like kasrkin (hint hint) and would be happy for any changes to incorporate them but keeping the army effective.

    Anyone find it funny that Cities of Death show the two worst combat armies in the game ... in combat!

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  3. #2
    Mr Commisar to you Commisarlestat's Avatar
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    Right, firstly what points level is this 1500? This matters a fair amount on some choices.

    To the list:
    HQ: The powerfist wont be used. He can be singled out and will be squashed before he has a chance to hit. meltas are anti tank and fiss are well not in a guard army. The rules mean guard fists are weaker than marine ones, drop it to a power sword. This squad should also be giving out leadership so charging it headlong into a losing combat is not a good idea.
    Go for a traditional setup as you have a gunline, thats Jo with HI and a banner possibly a commisar and a mortar or a plasma.

    Elites:
    Not my fav setup with these guys I prefer the no heavy weapon route but its an ok squad how you have it.

    Troops:
    Again with the commands. They need to drop the fists and commisars (unless you have a fluff idea that really needs them). having meltas isnt that bad but one of the squads shoudl have a heavy wepaon instead of the special weapons so it can support the main line wiht leadership.
    The squads are a little bare they need special weapons. Also they lack variety, there is very very little anti tank in this army (even less if you do decent commands!) so a few greande and missile squads woudl be good. perhaps a lascannon somewhere aswell.
    The conscripts are useless in that small number and without leadrship so id drop them or find a way to make them better.

    Heavy support:
    Bassie is fine but the russes need sponsons to be effective extra armour would also be nice.

    some small facts about your force setup.
    Your only decent source of leadership is in a suicide squad.
    you have 20 uselss men.
    you can save 240 points by dropping all commisars and powerfists.

    have a rewrite with some points for the whole platoons the whole of the command and the whole of heavy support. (putting it by each squad is easier for us aswell eg.

    platoon HQ, JO w/powersword, guardsmen w/2x grenade launcher, Xpts
    Squad 1w/ grenade launcher and heavy bolter, x pts
    squad 2 w/ plasma and missile launcher, x pts

    have a look at some of the other lists for easier formats!)
    Sorry to sound picky but it may get you more advice!

    hope that helps

    A

  4. #3
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    Yes, it was 1500pts.

    I did think that the command squads may have been a bit useless but where else would I get the counter attack ability? Or is it just not needed?

    I may change all the command squads to carrying lascannons that way the army gets a lot more AT. I'm not going to use powerweapons. The only weapon i'd consider would be a powerfist (as you can probably see) i'l probably keep the commisar and the HQ command squad for the extra leadership.

    With extra points I might get two sentinels with Lascannons giving me now five, much better i'd think you'd agree. The conscripts were a complete throw away unit there for capturing objectives and such. I'll probably give them some flamers. The leman russes aren't going to have sponsons. The way I see it the only gun I can see mysef firing is the battlecannon although I guess it's only 10pts if the battlecannon gets blown off.

    new list:
    HQ command - H.S. Officer w/ powerweapon (well it was only 5pts), commisar with P.Fist, lascannon, master vox, carapace armour (for officer and commisar), iron discipline - 190pts (bit expensive IMO)

    Elites:
    2 x 5 stormtroopers w/ 2 plasmaguns, infiltrate - 75pts each

    Troops:
    infantry platoon:
    officer w/ lascannon, iron discipline, officer with carapace - 70pts
    2 x squads w/ heavy bolters - 140pts

    same as above

    same as above (total 630pts)

    Fast attack:
    two seperate sentinels w/ lascannons - 55pts each

    Heavy support:
    2 x leman russ w/ 3 heavy bolters and pintle heavy stubber - 167pts each
    basilisk w/ indirect - 125pts

    Damn 39 points over... guess i can drop the junior officer carapace and the pintle stubbers or maybe a sentinel.
    Anyone find it funny that Cities of Death show the two worst combat armies in the game ... in combat!

  5. #4
    Mr Commisar to you Commisarlestat's Avatar
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    Righty this list is looking a loads better. There are still a few things that need looking at though.

    HQ:
    drop the carapace, it does funny rules things which actually do more harm than good. The powerfist on the commisar is not good at 2000 points it works but at this level it isnt needed. The lascannon in the command is not a greta place. Take a mortar and hide for the best ld effects. Save the lascannon though you will see why. The vox is pointless as oyu dotn have any others in the army. You can get away with it aswell. Thatll save you ooo 60 points at least 70 i think actually!.

    Troops.
    Drop the carapace on the JOs its a waste of points. Now take the lascannons out of all ofthose comand squads. put the lascannons in line squads and then put heavy bolters in the commands. use the lascannon from the command in one of the other squads and drop that heavy bolter.

    Fast Attack.
    These would be nicer with multilasers on, the multilas is a great wepaon and with the amount of lascannons in the troops section it woudl be ok. Autocannons is another good option here but id say multilas is best.

    Heavy support.
    Drop the pintle weapons and get extra armour. it makes better sense. The pintle weapons wont be used. the bolters may be used even if the cannon is still there though. It is redndant to a certain extent but fairly cheap.

    other than that going well

    Hope that helps

    A

  6. #5
    Senior Member SimulatedSnowman's Avatar
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    I did think that the command squads may have been a bit useless but where else would I get the counter attack ability? Or is it just not needed?
    If you have enough firepower, you shouldn't need it. I look at counter charge squads as kind of a luxury. If I have the points, then sure. If I have to choose between more guns and a counter charge unit, 99.9% of the time I'll take the guns.

    That said, the best counter charge unit for the IG are Rough Riders.
    I think you need to spend more time on your floor.

    2500 Black Templars
    7-3-3

  7. #6
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    I still don't see why it's better to swap the lascannons and heavy bolters around.

    I get just as much as each weapon. The command squads are smaller and so therefore are easier to hide in terrain and such. Also because they have less guns then there isn't wasted firepower. Now I admit lasguns aren't exactly the best guns out there but in a normal squad that's 9 lasguns wasted where as in a command squad i'm missin out on 3 or 4. As the command squads are longer ranged and with LD benefits etc they'll be able to hide behind the more redundant larger squads.

    If the command squads are in front then they're more likely to get targeted. Also with the infantry squads in front they'd be more likely be charged, this means the lascannon is sitting around and doing nothing, with a heavy bolter in the squad they'd be better at shooting the charging squad in front of them.

    I'm not sure if you just worded (is that even a real word?) it so I misenterpreted it differently but you seemed to have said that h. bolters can be fired with the ornance, unless there's some special hidden away somwhere ordnance can't be fired with any other guns. If the pintle was dropped i'd be tempted to go back to having no sponsons at all. I only added the stubber in case the ordance was lost, this way the tank is still a gun platform. Also if I was maybe shooting a small squad i'd be better off firing the non ordnance weapons.
    Anyone find it funny that Cities of Death show the two worst combat armies in the game ... in combat!

  8. #7
    Senior Member SimulatedSnowman's Avatar
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    What I believe he is saying is that if you're going to use your HQ primarily as a leadership bubble, you can hide your squad out of LOS and out of fire, and it will still provide the leadership you designed the squad for.

    I'm not sure if you just worded (is that even a real word?) it so I misenterpreted it differently but you seemed to have said that h. bolters can be fired with the ornance, unless there's some special hidden away somwhere ordnance can't be fired with any other guns. If the pintle was dropped i'd be tempted to go back to having no sponsons at all. I only added the stubber in case the ordance was lost, this way the tank is still a gun platform. Also if I was maybe shooting a small squad i'd be better off firing the non ordnance weapons.
    Shooting 9 heavy bolter shots is sometimes more advantageous than shooting your big gun, specifically when your tank is on the move. Rather than take the 2d6 scatter, you can shoot 9 times. Also like you said, if you're shooting at a smaller squad, such as your opponent's HQ. 9 potential wounds over 1. Easy choice.
    I think you need to spend more time on your floor.

    2500 Black Templars
    7-3-3

  9. #8
    Mr Commisar to you Commisarlestat's Avatar
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    The lasguns are wasted whatever you fire them at (sweeping statement but you guys know what I mean its in comparison). Its a case of target priority. The command has only a 4 man buffer before the lascannon is taken down. The squad also has a second job of leadership which needs to be taken into account. The heavy bolter isnt really the best weapon for a command squad, a mortar is best then missiles or autocannons are good. These weapons are less of a threat to the enemy so your command squad wont be targetted first.

    Dont think of it as lasguns wasted. If they actually get that close then it doesnt really matter what heavy or special weapon you have in the squad you will have to fire at them up close. Dont think of each squad seperately think of them more as awhole. The comand squads arent a 5 man squad thats easier to hide they are a leadership squad first and foremost so use them for that. Then you give them a weapon so they arent just doing one job. Giving them a lascannon makes the squad the same price as the line squad so the enemy will prioritise it and take it down taking out both your anti tank and your leadership.

    You mention the placing of squads. Well the command squad can be deployed at the back with, yes, a longer distance to the enemy. This is however good. The platoon's lascannon takes out any tanks threatening the platoon, the heavy bolter squad any infantry that threatens, the command gives leadership and covering fire against infantry that are too close (heavy bolter isnt the best weapon here). A missile is good here as it can fill both roles also the autocannon fills both but to a different extent. The command squad is there to support the line squads nto to be a squad on its own. In this way each of the squads in the platoon is equal priority for the opponenet. he can either take out your anti infantry ability, or your anti tank or your command. This is why special weapons in the commands can work. I'll stop that there otherwise it'll end up as a tactica thread!

    TBH your squads should have special weapons aswell as heavy weapons. The only time I suggest this isnt followed is if you have a lascannon in the line squad.

    The thing with the pintle mount is that you are spending over the odds for the weapon. The sponsons cost is very cheap; you get two heavy bolters for the price of one in a squad. However the heavy stubber is a worse weapon and you get one for more than the cost of both of the heavy bolters. the sponsons arent expensive the stubber is, simple as that. The points could be better used elsewhere in the list (a pintle on a russ could be ok at 2000 points hence why I asked for the total points level!). The points would be better spent on extra armour and track guards (for example). That way the tank would be there to fight longer effectively giving it more shots in the game overall.

    Hope that helps

    A

  10. #9
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    Ok, that makes sense, i'll do a revised list later. (goin to bed)
    Anyone find it funny that Cities of Death show the two worst combat armies in the game ... in combat!

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