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Can stormtroopers make a positive impact? I love the models and have painted 20
but they never seem to do anything except die.
here are the models I own in a 1500 point list.
1 brother captian
10 Grey knights with an incinerator
10 Grey knights with an incinerator
10 Storm troopers with 2 melta guns
10 Storm troopers with 2 melta guns
2 transport rhinos for the troopers, both with extra armor and smoke launchers
1 Grey knight land raider crusader, with smoke launchers
1 Grey knight land raider, with extra armor
Should I modify my army to make my troopers more effective, or just adopt new tactics?
That's a very good list, very similar to the one I use myself. Because of the emphasis in 5th about troops as scoring units and the high costs of GK's, it's almost a necesity to get stormies to provide more bodies/scoring. Yes they die easily, which is why you need to stuff them in a transport for protection. The thing is, many opponents will try to take out your GK's first and foremost so as long as you try to avoid a direct assault on their guys with your stormies, they actually will hang around for a while. I usually move them close to an objective and use them to take out tanks or provide fire support. On turn 4, then I make a mad dash towards the objectives to try to claim/contest it.
As a matter of fact, another strategy would be to mount your stormies in the LR's instead and leave your GK's out open but close to the rhinos (so they can mount if needed). They provide a lot of firepower (many ppl underestimate stormbolter spam). Your opponent will have to decide whether to fire at them or your LR's. And if they fire at the GK's, they need to check for shrouding. Just a thought.
Last edited by jy2; February 16th, 2009 at 20:12.
GK can't use IST's rhinos (cf FAQ), but footsloging them, and embarking some IST in LRC is still a valid option!
Actually, putting the GKs in the Rhinos is a valid option; as of 5th edition a dedicated transport can only deploy carrying the unit it was chosen with, but once the battle begins that squad can disembark and it can then carry any units on the board subject to whatever restrictions it has on passengers. The only FAQ I've found so far (the one which adds PotMS and Assault Vehicle to the Land Raider/ Crusader's profiles - I've lost the link, sorry) makes no mention of GKs being unable to use Rhinos :-o
The list is solid enough, though I'd maybe go for Psycannons over the Incinerators as it gives your GKs more range. Also I'd ditch the Crusader if you're not taking Termies; it's just not worth laying out that many points on something designed to get units into combat unless you've actually got dedicated combat units. I'd either take another standard pattern Land Raider, or alternatively cut the IST squad numbers down by a couple of heads per squad and take two TLLC/ML Dreads. If you're just going to use the ISTs for mounted tank-busting they really don't need to be 10-man squads; if you want to keep them as 10-man squads I'd swap the meltaguns for plasma guns and grenade launchers and use them to back up the innate shootiness of the GKs, though if you do that you'll definitely want to find a bit more anti-armour firepower from somewhere. You can still take the Rhinos if you want, and either use them to move your ISTs to supporting positions or deploy them empty and use them to shuttle the GKs around :-)
Nice list, a few ideas:
- you may want to switch out the crusader for a GHLR
- you may want to switch one of the PAGK squads for a retinue for the BC. Maybe even upgrading the BC to a GM
- using GKs in Rhinos is illegal. It is not in the DH FAQ, but it is in the 5e FAQ which is a separate document.
Reps for pointing that out.
Unless you know that you're facing a mechanized list, I, on the other hand, think it's ok to have a Crusader because:
1) You have to go for objectives and a GKLRC is the only vehicle that gives your entire GK unit frag grenades.
2) You're need it for horde armies
Last edited by jy2; February 18th, 2009 at 14:16.
Thanks for the reps JY2. I have been a long time lurker, but have enjoyed reading your comments.
I did some more research - is the first item on the last page of the 5e FAQ.
And I am not surprised for the confusion. 5e launched in the summer and the FAQ didn't come out until October. Believe me, I had my PAGK rolling in Rhinos all summer long And it really upset me to see that, but I have to believe GW really does mean and intend that the Codex trumps the rulebook. And you have to take the good with the bad. NFW & Smoke vs. AC and transports.
Frankly, it's all the more reason to give PAGK the Heroic Intervention special rule. Not only does it justify their points cost, but it absolutely fits the fluff better than drop pods, bikes, etc. GK are not SM, my view is that we should embrace that and push to keep our uniqueness versus bringing us closer to marines. This one change to one rule would instantly make us competitive in a general setting.
There it is; if it says in the Codex that transports can only carry the unit they were bought for that over-rides the new rules, and that's exactly what it says in our Codex That sucks, though it makes sense I suppose. Between the Assault weapons and Deep Striking the GKs are fairly mobile as-is, giving them the option to mount up in something as cheap as a Rhino would be a massive imbalance. Which is why the fact we can't do it sucks so much
I find myself very much inclined to agree about the desire to have the Daemonhunters, and Grey Knights especially, play more like Smurfs. I run Inquisition armies because they have a character all their own, and if they lost that it'd be tragic. Imagine how the IG players would feel if their rules were changed so's they couldn't field 500 infantry models in a 1000 point game; that's exactly how I'd feel if they told me I wouldn't be massively outnumbered anymore. The sick satisfaction of watching an opponent's smug grin turn to slack-jawed horror as your 2 PAGK squads and their little Storm Trooper friends whittle down his massed ranks in torrents of bolter spam, it's just too good to give up >_<
Greetings, Meek one.
Your list seems very solid to me. However, the Stormtroopers Melta-Rhino tactic has always struck me as a very foolish maneauver. With the Shrouding/Land Raiders hiding your powerful Grey Knights, your opponent is more likely to use his firepower messing up your advancing (and non-Shrouded) IST units. The whole point of using Land Raiders for Grey Knights is to negate the effect of any weaponry with S7 or less. This firepower then, goes right to your Storm Troopers. I'm completely unsurprised they die often.
I suggest using them in a different manner. With the Meltaguns, you have a 26" attack range, moving 12", disembarking 2", and firing 12". If you want to go for double penetrating strikes, make that 20" attack range. That's ~half the table width-wise. There are 2 targets your going to come up against:
-Vehicles that advance on you
-Vehicles that do not
For the first, lie in wait for the perfect time to strike (a Grey Knight dogma), taking advantage of Targeters and very intense watching. Use a Chimera in lieu of a Rhino: 20 point difference, 2 Heavy Bolter difference. This way you can make your squad keep the heat on the enemy until they are in striking range. When the enemy vehicle is close enough to isolate it from the rest of their force, blitz it with your Meltas. This should keep you on your side of the table, hiding behind your (tougher) transport, destroying the enemy with ease. Consider taking a Veteran Sergeant with a Combi-Melta for assurance.
For the latter, don't use Storm Troopers. Leman Russ, Predators, etc; all need to be engaged with different tactics. Charging your troops into the heat of the enemy to take out a deep target is sure suicide. I suggest a flanking Eversor, long ranged Dreadnought, or even the Multi-Melta on your Land Raider Crusader. Don't forget you can move 12" and still fire it, because of the new Machine Spirit rules. That gives you a potential 24" double penetration attack range.
Best of luck!
2H - LEGIO HYDRA