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  1. #1
    The Pacifist Wargamer Quick's Avatar
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    [1,500] Imperial Fists, Help Needed

    Hi All,

    I am still stuck in the previous edition when vehicles were basically to be avoided at all costs and the bigger the squad the better. At least, that was my understanding. I'm trying to modernize a little and get some vehicles on the table in my end, but I always end up with a worrying lack of models.

    So here's my latest iteration. It's led by Kantor, so I can take advantage of the Stubborn rule and offset the small unit size of Combat Squads. Kantor drops in on the first turn with the Sternguard, the Terminators drop in when needed and act as a massive threat to anything in a two-foot wide circle around them.

    HQ
    - Pedro Kantor

    Elites
    - Assault Terminators (x5): Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields
    - Sternguard (x7): 2xCombi-Melta, 2xCombi-Flamer, Drop Pod

    Fast Attack
    - Attack Bike: Multimelta
    - Attack Bike: Multimelta

    Troops
    - Tactical Squad (x10): Lascannon, Flamer, Power Sword, Razorback
    - Tactical Squad (x10): Lascannon, Meltagun, Powerfist, Razorback
    - Scout Squad (x5): Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloaks, Teleport Homer

    Heavy Support
    - Vindicator
    - Whirlwind

    Total: 1,495 pts.

    Any thoughts?
    Thanks in advance.

    Last edited by Quick; June 10th, 2009 at 22:47.


    WHFB: Dwarfs || WH40k: Imperial Fists, Necrons || WM/H: Trollbloods || BFG: Necrons

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  3. #2
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    well, i think you should consider not using the vindicator and usinga land raider for assault terminators are good in them. You could also give 2 terminators lightning claws, they are very effective.

  4. #3
    Ghost of LO ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar's Avatar
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    185 (x8)

    HQ
    - Pedro Kantor
    Really expensive. Leadership is rarely an issue for space marines. Close combat squads have 9 LD and elites have 9 Leadership. Shooting squads have a solid 8 and if they fall back, they auto regroup and can still shoot as if they didn't move.

    Kantor is best in a gunline space marine army, which revolves around overwhelming firepower, and a small counter charge element lead by kantor.

    Lysander is more expensive, but he twinlinks all those deadly bolter shots and is a lot more fluffy. But, he's also super expensive. Vulkan is an absolute beast when close to the enemy, with an army wide bonus. Personally, I'd rather have those two over your current selection. Or maybe just a captain to save points. Lightening claw and combi weapon or storm bolter cheap, effective.

    - Assault Terminators (x5): Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields
    Taking these guys without vulkan seams silly. You might think about removing them. I'd also give at least 1 of them a pair of lightening claws. This unit costs lots of points and is incredably difficult to actually get into combat.

    IF you must do this, put a locator on the drop pod. Anything can use a Locator.

    - Sternguard (x7): 2xCombi-Melta, 2xCombi-Flamer, Drop Pod
    7 is a strange number for these guys. The need lots of shots to kill stuff effectively. In my opinion, you've got to many combi weapons. You want to shoot these guys at infantry not tanks, you can kill tanks for a lot less points. I'd ditch the combi meltas. Consider taking a lightening claw, so that you can fight your way out of the enebatable assault you'll recieve.

    Fast Attack
    - Attack Bike: Multimelta
    - Attack Bike: Multimelta
    Awesome.

    Troops
    - Tactical Squad (x10): Lascannon, Flamer, Power Sword, Razorback
    - Tactical Squad (x10): Lascannon, Meltagun, Powerfist, Razorback
    Powersword? That's not going to kill MEQs in close combat, and you don't need a powersword to kill easier opponents, so upgrade to a first or lose the sword, I'd take the fist.

    Not a fan of more than one lascannon squad, consider downgrading one of a plasma cannon or heavy bolter.

    - Scout Squad (x5): Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloaks, Teleport Homer
    Lose the camo cloaks, too many points, just get into cover and use these guys to take the home objective. Ditch the tele homer. I'd take at least one more scout and consider adding a heavy bolter.

    Heavy Support
    - Vindicator
    - Whirlwind
    I'd rather have two pillbox predators. They save points, are really easy to use, tougher to kill than a whirlwind, and do more damage on average.
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  5. #4
    The Pacifist Wargamer Quick's Avatar
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    Ah, Forged', how I have both anticipated and dreaded your advice. You do so demolish a list with good advice.

    I have, taking your advice into consideration, come up with two lists. One, you'll probably hate, the other, you might hate less.

    Also, what is a "Pillbox Predator"?

    HQ
    - Lysander

    Elites
    - A.Terms (x5): 3x TH/SS, 2x LC
    - Stern (x8): 2x C-Flm, DP, Beacon

    Troops
    - Tacs (x10): PC, PG, PF, Rzrbk
    - Tacs (x10): LC, Flm, PF, Rzrbk
    - Scouts (x6): Rifles, HB

    FA
    - ATK: MM
    - ATK: MM

    HS
    - Vindi

    Total: 1,488 pts

    Lysander joins the Sterns and Drops in on Turn 1; the Termies follow

    Or, I have a force led by recently promoted Captain of the Fists' fifth Company, Brother Cheapan Cheerful.

    HQ
    - Captain: Claw, SB

    Elites
    - Stern (x8): Claw, DP
    - Ironclad: HF for SB, DP

    Troops
    - Tacs (x10): PC, MG, PF, DP
    - Tacs (x10): ML, Flm, PF, Rzrbk
    - Scouts (x6): Rifles, HB

    FA
    - ATK: MM
    - ATK: MM
    - ATK: MM

    HS
    - Vindi
    - Pred: HBs

    Total: 1,481 pts
    Last edited by Quick; June 11th, 2009 at 22:51.


    WHFB: Dwarfs || WH40k: Imperial Fists, Necrons || WM/H: Trollbloods || BFG: Necrons

  6. #5
    Senior Member Chirality's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quick View Post
    Also, what is a "Pillbox Predator"?
    A "Pillbox" is a military term for a type of bunker. I believe he is referring to a AC/HB sponson Predator.

    I like list #1 because it's fluffy, but both look good to me. Normally, with teleporting Terminators I use the shooty kind with a CML or assault cannon, however, even though they won't get much to do the turn they arrive except to attract fire, the assault variety exude a nice "scary factor". Good choice.

    I would go with the meltagun over the plasmagun in your Tactical squad in list #1. The ability to charge after firing it makes it more useful in my book.

    For list #2 you could consider getting a third Drop pod in place of a Razorback for a Tactical squad. That way you could get both the Ironclad and Sternguard on the board first turn.

    Good luck!
    Last edited by Chirality; June 11th, 2009 at 17:36.
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  7. #6
    The Future realitycheque's Avatar
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    I'll comment on your first list first, then the other two :)
    Quote Originally Posted by Quick View Post
    - Pedro Kantor
    As he's in your list, make the most of his Hold the Line! ability.

    - Assault Terminators (x5): Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields
    - Sternguard (x7): 2xCombi-Melta, 2xCombi-Flamer, Drop Pod
    Drop the Assault Terminators, and max out the sternguard. 2x Combi Melta and 2x Combi Flamer will allow you to pop a transport with one combat squad, then roast the contents with another. With the remaining points, start another Sternguard squad in Drop Pod.

    - Attack Bike: Multimelta
    - Attack Bike: Multimelta
    Swap these for more Sternguard in your new squad. Sternguard can get a Turn 1 tank pop a lot more often than these guys.

    - Tactical Squad (x10): Lascannon, Flamer, Power Sword, Razorback
    - Tactical Squad (x10): Lascannon, Meltagun, Powerfist, Razorback
    I agree with FitFoW, 2 lascannons is a bit too AT - his suggestion of a plasma cannon matches mine. Swap one Razorback for a Drop Pod, so you can have 2 sternguard units down turn 1. Also swap the sword for a fist.
    - Scout Squad (x5): Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloaks, Teleport Homer
    If you've got Hold the Line, you don't need a 3rd Troops choice. Drop these, and fill out the new Sternguard squad some more.

    - Vindicator
    - Whirlwind
    I like both of these choices.

    Total: 1,495 pts.
    If you've ever got 5 points left, you should be spending it even if it's just on meltabombs for the guy with a powersword.
    My Deathwatch Campaign
    Furious Angels: (SM) W22, D1, L9 (BA) W15, D0, L3 | Sentinels of Saphery (HE) W3, D0, L0

  8. #7
    The Pacifist Wargamer Quick's Avatar
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    Yeah, the "Pillbox Predator" build is the basic Autocannon with Heavy Bolter sponsons. Five years I've been here...I guess no one is immune to "the Search function is your friend."

    As much as I like the Lysander list, the more I fiddle with the numbers, the more I come to realize that a 200 point HQ, even one as mighty as Lysander is too much for an army at 1500 points. 1,750, sure. 1500, no.

    Captain Cheap-and-Cheerful's list is probably the most efficient, and the Fists are nothing if not efficient.

    I'm not quite sure yet what to do with the Captain, and indeed, another Drop Pod might not be a bad idea and I have quite a few points left over to spare. Perhaps beef up the Scout squad, perhaps start passing some plasma pistols around.


    WHFB: Dwarfs || WH40k: Imperial Fists, Necrons || WM/H: Trollbloods || BFG: Necrons

  9. #8
    Ghost of LO ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar's Avatar
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    185 (x8)

    I actually like this list better. Don't know why. It's far too elite, but I don't mind it. It would be ever so much easier for me if you posted the point cost of each squad, then I could fiddle more easily.
    HQ
    - Lysander

    Elites
    - A.Terms (x5): 3x TH/SS, 2x LC
    - Stern (x: 2x C-Flm, DP, Beacon

    Troops
    - Tacs (x10): PC, MG, PF, Rzrbk
    - Tacs (x10): LC, Flm, PF, Rzrbk

    FA
    - ATK: MM
    - ATK: MM

    HS
    - Vindi
    - Vindi

    1500/1500

    If you remove the scouts and downgrade the PG to a MG, you'd have enough points for a second vindicator. I'm sure your opponent's won't like that. You can use the stern guard and terminators to handle MCs and then one tactical squad and attack bikes for handling tanks. Then the Vindis, Razorbacks, and the other tactical for hoard control. And everything is well suited for smashing MEQs.

    ----------------------

    So your compedative list. This will be harder to make awesome. I don't like the Iron Clad, no matter what. It's not worth the points really. It's only slightly better and a lot more points. If your gonna be compedative, take it to the next level.

    Captain: 130
    Relic Blade.

    Tactical Squad, 10: 250;
    Melta gun, Lascannon, powerfist;
    Razorback transport.

    Tactical Squad, 10: 245;
    Melta gun, Plasma Cannon, powerfist;
    Razorback transport.

    Tactical Squad, 10: 235;
    Flamer, heavy bolter, powerfist;
    Razorback transport.

    Tactical Squad, 10: 235;
    Flamer, heavy bolter, powerfist;
    Razorback transport.

    Attack bike: 50.

    Attack bike: 50.

    Attack bike: 50.

    Predator, 85.
    Auto cannon, heavy bolters.

    Predator, 85.
    Auto cannon, heavy bolters.

    Predator, 85.
    Auto cannon, heavy bolters.

    1500/1500

    This is a little bit more of the brut force tactic. You've simply got to much stuff for the enemy to deal with. Solid, combined with a nice assault section. This list has answers for every opponent. Make sure you move your transports at least 6 inches every turn, get the most out of them.

    41 marines, 7 tanks, 3 attack bikes. Step up to 1850, and you can add in some fliar - Better HQ, dreadnought, vindi, ect. Sterngaurd are spendy, I rarely field them in compedative play.

    If you want to use Sternguard, take the army up to 2000 points, bring back Kantor and support them! How do you support stern gaurd?

    9th Company Nova Bearers
    Last edited by ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar; June 11th, 2009 at 23:20.
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  10. #9
    The Pacifist Wargamer Quick's Avatar
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    I'm glad that you like the fluffy Lysander list better. It's always more fun to play a list that reflects the backstory, in my opinion, and this one looks like the kind of force that you'd imagine would breach a city wall, then start going block-by-block in brutal urban warfare.

    You're right, though, points-wise, it's incredibly top-heavy.

    Are two Vindicators a bit much at 1500? I don't play competitively, I just don't want a pushover of a list. Two big pie plates, though, would that tick someone off?

    I'd love to post the points, because it does make things easier, but, in all honesty, the fewer listed, the better. I'd prefer to give the site administration as little hassle as possible for legal issues.


    WHFB: Dwarfs || WH40k: Imperial Fists, Necrons || WM/H: Trollbloods || BFG: Necrons

  11. #10
    Senior Member Chirality's Avatar
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    I see no reason why you should not take two Vindicators at 1500 points. I play against a guy who routinely fields 2 Vindicators in his list and I see no problem with it.
    Last edited by Chirality; June 12th, 2009 at 21:40.
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