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I would appreciate any feedback on this list. I understand that there are some compromises in here to fit in certain things, so below i will explain my rationale - knowing this you might be able to better judge whether I have made the correct choices with the list or not.
I like to play to win, however I play in a fun setting, so although I want competitive lists I don't want lists that are no fun to play against. I do field double lash occasionally with my CSM army, but I would really field a 4 raider list on a regular basis - just to let you know where i stand
HQ | 175
1 x Pedro Kantor 175
Elite | 1075
5 man Terminator Assault Squad 450
* 2x Storm Shield + Thunder Hammer
* 3x Lightening Claws
* Dedicated Land Raider Redemer
10 Man Sternguard Squad (Pedro's squad) 285
* Drop Pod
10 Man Sternguard Squad 340
* Sgt Power Fist upgrade
* 6x Combi Melta
* Drop Pod
Troops | 460
10 Man Tactical Squad 230
* Sgt Power Fist upgrade
10 Man Tactical Squad 230
* Sgt Power Fist upgrade
Fast Attack | 140
2 x land speeder 140
* 2x Multimelta
* 2x Heavy Flamer
Total | 1850
You will notice there are 2 drop pods, i will likley drop pod the the combi melta sternguard squad on the first turn, combat-squading if beneficial to take out 1 - 2 pieces of armour on the first turn. The Multimelta bunkers (tactical squads) can then take up midfield positions to consolodate 2nd turn onwards, with the land raider rumbling towards the enemies heart. Speeders are also there to take some armour out of the game and if alive help kill infantry from turn 2 onwards.
Pedro and his second Sternguard squad will hopefully arrive turn 2-3 in time to give his bonus to the Termie squad hitting assault and for his Sternguard to clean up some of the infantry that would have fallen out of the armour i popped earlier.
Obviously no 2 games are the same, but i hope i have enough potential armour killing potential early in the game followed up by quite a bit of infantry killing potential mid game.
If i face an army without Armour, then almost every unit is able to dual role and switch to killing infantry from turn 1.
- The army has a potential 8 scoring units - 4 at minimum, which feels more than enough.
- I have gone for only a few pods, as when faced with too many pods an enemy has an easy choice to stay in reserve, this way there are threats both on and of the table.
- there can be as low as 12 KP in this army, but as many as 16 - 12 seems to be par, so not really too much of a liability there.
- I might have too little mobile armour in the list? 1 land raider, 2 rhinos and 2 speeders, i wonder if these might be dealt with swiftly at this points level?
- Tactical squads often perform better getting out of combat asap (failing their moral test) however because of Pedro's stubborn they don't have that luxury - this is the reason for the power fists - i'm going to have to do damage if caught - and hopefully Pedro's aura can assist here too.
At 2000points i would probably add Cassius to the Terminators i think.
I am really struggling to find a way to reduce it to 1750 however - so suggestions here would be appreciated.
All your sergeants need power fists... Just kidding. Sorry.
I'm actually not going to be much of a help, but since none else has thrown in their opinion I thought I might as well have a go.
The problem is that this list is hard to change without entirely breaking it, because there is no room for a little tweaking here and a little tweaking there. I like the concept very much and I think it will do okay, but you did already mention that there's too few or too much armor for such a high points limit. Two rhinos and a land raider are perfectly okay at 1,000 points, but even at 1,500 points I would already advise you go stack up, more so at 1,850 points.
First off: it may be beneficial to split the landspeeders into two squadrons of their own. Yes, its another kill point, but a single enemy tactical squad won't be able to take down both in one turn and your multi-meltas can target two different vehicles, and you can contest two different objectives. I think it's actually really worth the trouble.
About contesting objectives: this is actually very important. Though your army will fare quite well at actually holding objectives you'll still have trouble if there are many of them. Contesting objectives has actually become as important for winning as has claiming them. Landspeeders are great for this, so try to keep them alive for the later turns.
I don't like the heavy flamer/multi-melta landspeeders very much, but that's just me. Their multi-role flavor suits your army and changing them wouldn't get us anywhere anyways because everything else is pretty much fixed.
I'm a combat squadder, making use of that rule almost all the time. Already said so in the power fist thread. I couldn't seem to accept the idea of five lonely guys running around the field at first, but after a few games I've seen it work very well. You don't seem to think so. I'll trust you to maybe reconsider anyhow, but you would probably have to change your list for that. (Can't transport both squads in a rhino, transporting one first and then picking up the other one makes no sense either. So you'll probably leave your multi-melta behind and out of range, so you would need to switch to another weapon, that would make you lose anti-tank power, etc... this would just cause a landslide of changes, as most of the other changes I could recommend - that is why I first opted to keep silent, and now that I don't I will still hold back those ideas that would break the whole list.)
I would advise you to go all thunder hammer and storm shield on your assault terminators though. You lose the lightning claw ones twice as fast to power and plasma weapons, while you only really gain a (mediocre) advantage against T3 and T4 models with a single wound, all the while suffering disadvantages versus tanks, monstrous creatures, multi-wound models, etc...
If you go to 2000 points you might also try to fit in Vulkan instead of Cassius. Sure, the latter really lets your terminators hit a lot harder, but Vulkan could (if you forfeit Pedro's stubborn) really help with all those meltas and flamers in your list.
Going down to 1,750 points is going to be tough. I'd suggest dropping a weapon each on the land speeders (freeing a variable amount of points, I recommend dropping the heavy flamers, though they can be hell to infantry and they don't save you as many points) and/or maybe drop some veterans out of Pedro's squad as you don't seem to consider combat squadding them anyhow. Nonetheless: that would be kind of a waste of potential, but the problem still is that all the rest of your army is pretty much fixed dead.
The list doesn't fit my style of play but I do see how it could work, and I'm sure you will make it work. Good luck and have fun!
Cheers for your feedback Red!
lol @ the Power Fist comment
I really do take your point about this being quite a finite list - there really isn't much room for changing things without a big re-write!
I do have an irrational fear of running high KP lists - but your suggestion to run the speeders separately is something i had considered and i may well try now you have brought the issue up again. i have no problems combat-squading when its required, that wasn't meant to be dismissed in my post - but im not sure i would do it in kill points games for obvious reasons. For this reason i was reluctant to reduce Pedro's squad below 10 - but sometimes needs must...
I could try to fit in a combi flamer or melta on the tactical squads to better support them when combat- squaded (leaving the multimelta half behind)?
I know people are pretty much unanimous when choosing their assault terminators - go for TH/SS all round. however im just still not convinced - please try to convince me! The mix of lightening claws seems to give that bit of flexibility...
I do like Vulcan, however im cautious about overwriting Pedro's chapter tactics as it also includes the 'Hold the line' special rule - which is important for this list. I have considered a librarian with Gate however.
Reducing to 1750 really is an issue - i might have to drop 2 fists and 2 Sternguard?
If you had to re-write the list to better fit your ideals, how would you do it?
Just came home from work, but the weather's so beautiful that you'll have to forgive me taking my bike for a ride before you get an elaborate reply from me.
But I still want to make a quick posting concerning not your list but a rules issue: I understand that "hold the lines" is a separate special ability of Pedro. Concerning chapter tactics you'll have to decide which are active, but hold the lines is always in effect if Pedro is part of the army. Just like an army with a Khan or a captain on bike may always take bikes as troops, no matter what chapter tactics are in effect.
This may be a misunderstanding, bit this is how we play it!
I'll comment on your list in a few hours. Stay tight.
Looking forward to it!
Unfortunately (i wish it was the case) i think Hold the Line is in the chapter tactics of Pedro:
"Chapter Tactics: if you include Pedro Kantor than all units in your army exchange the Combat Tactics universal special rule and your Sternguard Veteran squads gain the Hold The Line! special rule detailed below. If more than one character in your army has the Chapter Tactics special rule, you must choose which version will apply."
Because 'Hold the Line!' is permitted by Pedro's Chapter Tactics rule, choosing to use Vulcan's Chapter Tactics (if he was in the army too) would basically remove the use of 'Hold the Line!', based on the above wording?
Back I am, sorry for the delay.
Unfortunately you are very right!
It is listed as a separate special rule and it reads that if Pedro is part of your army and so on. But Pedro's chapter tactics do state that hold the lines is applied if his chapter tactics are used, so I guess that does justify ruling that it isn't applied when his chapter tactics aren't in use.
Don't take any other chapter tactics then. You need your sternguard scoring or at least some more troops instead.
On the combat squads: a combiweapon on the sergeant generally rarely hurts, but I fear the points are needed more dearly elsewhere. For example in the upgrades from rhinos to razorbacks, giving you a whole punch more firepower for just a tiny tidbit of points.
Leaving the multi-meltas behind is a problem though, because they aren't much more effective against infantry as missile launchers (while not sharing their flexibility and range) and only effective against vehicles at very short range, making them practically useless in your deployment zone (aggressively speaking - if there's a lot of vehicles coming at you they may very well still do great work).
So if you decide to go for combat squads you should probably go with some other heavy weapon. Lascannons or missile launchers for tank hunting, if you want to stick with that, or plasma cannons or heavy bolters against infantry.
As for the terminators: thunder hammers strike later than lightning claws. But anything that easily kills you will often enough either strike last itself or be faster than you. You can rely on your storm shield terminators to stay alive long enough to be able to strike. Unlike your lightning claw terminators, who will fail twice as many saves against hive tyrants, eldar banshees, genestealers' rending attacks, etc (who all strike well before even the lightning claws do).
Lightning claw pairs also come with that extra attack. And re-rolling to wound seems to offset the higher strength of the thunder hammers. Let's see how your 2 thunder hammers and 3 pairs of lightning claws perform compared to 5 thunder hammers: charging MEQ you would kill 7 instead of 6.25 on the average, an efficiency increase of about 12%. Charging guardsmen (who are the one example that works the very best in favor of the lightning claws) you will kill a good 10 instead of a good 8 on average. Isn't that overkill? Isn't it maybe better - however small the chance - if 1 or 2 guardsmen survive and make their morale, staying in combat for the guard player's turn so your unit won't get shot? Against a dreadnought or any vehicle that doesn't have a rear armor value of 10 five thunder hammers are obviously 250% the power of two. This matters, since if you get charged your two hammers will only yield 2/3 a penetrating hit against a dreadnought on average, while five hammers and their 5/3 average penetrating hits deal with the dreadnought more reliably. If you are charged by a hive tyrant, your squad would only bring in 2.5 wounding hits on average, while five thunder hammers would deal a good 4, killing the tyrant.
Instant killing: many models will have a T4 or less and multiple wounds. If you face them the thunder hammers' performance is suddenly awesome compared to lightning claws. Consider a Necron player tying you up with fearless scarabs. You won't be losing the combat so you can't fall back. But it will take you quite a while if you rip every wound off every base singedly. Thunder hammers will hack free of any swarms in virtually no time.
Take a look at weapons summary lists. Look for AP1 and AP2 weaponry. See how common it is on the battlefields of 5th edition. Then consider the advantages of the storm shield's invulnerable save...
What I am basically saying is: initiative doesn't matter (most things that are actually dangerous strike either even before your lightning claws or simultaneously with your thunder hammers - and the storm shield terminators have double the chance of surviving any of those things that are actually dangerous to them), the extra attack is good against the cheapest infantry out there but there it's just overkill because you have two turns of combat anyhow before you can do anything else and your hammers will kill anything in that time too. Against mostrous creatures, walkers, vehicles, multi-wound models, etc your lightning claws are at a vast disadvantage, not only being almost unable to wound but also actually dying much faster from return blows. Against low-AP shooting weapons storm shields help to keep your guys alive. Don't forget the thunder hammers auto-stunning, etc...
I hope this paragraph is not a complete mess but can actually be understood a little. I'm uncertain if I managed to make my point clear to you.
A gating librarian can wreck havoc. But keep in mind that if gating with a squad (so in most instances) you will lose one expensive model on every sixth occassion.
Not even speaking of the other risks of deep-striking and scattering, for now. Gating seemed a cool thing to do when I first read about it (I have always envied Necrons for their veil of darkness) but it doesn't work all too well on the field, at least that's the experience I made.
Then probably the chaplain is the better addition. He can also give your terminators some really high-initiative strikes that could actually strike before dangerous enemies like Khorne bloodletters, etc...
If I'd rewrite the list I would probably go either all drop pod (better for sternguard) and drop the terminators and land speeders for something fitting better with a drop podding force (and add meltas in the tacticals instead of flamers, etc), or go all mechanized - probably rhinos for sternguard and razorbacks for the tacticals. The land raider and land speeders could stay then and I might put in some bikes (multi-melta attack bikes for tank hunting, etc) or assault marines.
But that's just theory. Probably I'd write up a totally different list that better suits my style of play.
Sorry for the long delay. Hope those comments are somewhat inspiring.